Talking Grit: A Detroit Lions Podcast
Talking Grit: A Detroit Lions Podcast
E26: "Pride Preview" - Week 4 - Lions vs Seahawks (with Brandon Cain and Mike Dugar)
In this episode of 'Talking Grit,' hosts Jason Harwood and Jacob Litton dive into a comprehensive preview of the upcoming Monday night football game between the Detroit Lions and Seattle Seahawks. Featuring insights from Brandon Cain of the Hawk's Nest YouTube channel and Mike Dugar from The Athletic, the discussion covers the historical performance, key player matchups, and new strategies under Seattle's coach Mike McDonald. The focus includes the impact of vital players such as Gino Smith, Jared Goff, Aiden Hutchinson, and DK Metcalf, as well as strategies to handle the Seahawks' pass rush and running game. The hosts discuss the Lions' defense and provide predictions and keys to victory for both teams.
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Welcome everybody to talking grit. I'm Jason Harwood. And with me is Jacob Lytton. Today, we have another edition of pride preview with our upcoming matchup with the Seattle Seahawks. This time on Monday night football. Let's see if we can get a revenge on this team. That's. Has dominated us, frankly, in the recent history. So to help us understand our opponent some more, we'll feature two interviews this week, first, We have Brandon Cain. He's the host of the Hawk's Nest. YouTube channel. Next we'll be Michael Sean Duggar, who covers the Seattle Seahawks for the athletic and also co hosts the Seattle man to man podcast. So we're going to get two different angles on that. It's a big Monday night matchup. We thought we'd hit you up with two guests. So that should go pretty good. Before we get in this matchup, Jacob, lines are going to be, showing out and something, what were they going to be wearing on, on this Monday night?
Jacob Litton:Yes, the the black jerseys. Motor City muscle, um, kind of expected here. It's going to be a huge night, the Monday night game against the Seahawks. Can't wait to see these black jerseys. It's going to be great. know, perfect time to debut them.
Jason Harwood:Yep. It's going to be the all black ones too. So black pants with the black. Jerseys, I really like the blue pants. So I can't wait for that. To come out but The all black would be good and seattle announced I think today that they're doing all white jerseys So it's gonna be all black jerseys verse all white jerseys.
Jacob Litton:I, I'm digging it. I love it. You know, we still got the blue helmet anyway, so
Jason Harwood:Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to see see these jerseys in action. I'm excited. And it's kind of a perfect night because one of our superstar players that used to wear those jerseys back in their first rendition Calvin Johnson, he's going to join the pride of the lion to be the 21st member of the lions to, to make To get that honor. It's essentially like the, ring of honor. His name will be up there and it's about time for Calvin. I'm glad that he's going to be up there.
Jacob Litton:Absolutely. Yes. Well deserved. I mean, he had that falling out and he just wasn't around the team for so long. It feels really good to have Calvin back on our side in the building and, showing him the support that
Jason Harwood:Definitely
Jacob Litton:earned.
Jason Harwood:all first team, all pros six time pro bowler elected to the hall of fame and 2021 and still currently holds the all time single season, you 1, 964 yards. It only seems like only a matter of time, especially with 17 games that that's going to drop. But it still hasn't and Calvin still holds it. So, yeah, that's pretty awesome. It was kind of scary at the end of last year. We thought Tyreek was going to take it cause he had a pretty good lead and then he got injured towards the end of the year. And yeah, Calvin's still the, the leader of that one.
Jacob Litton:of games. there's an asterisk.
Jason Harwood:Well, I mean, then OJ Simpson, I'll say. Still have the 2000 yard. Cause I think he did it 2000 rushing yards and 14 games. So everybody else has done you know, 16 games still.
Jacob Litton:I wasn't alive when OJ was a football player. That's not why I know him.
Jason Harwood:Yeah. You probably knew him for another, another reason.
Jacob Litton:Yeah, right. right.
Jason Harwood:Let's talk about Seattle Seahawks here. Let's get the introduction to them. As we get later and later in the season, we're going to talk less about their draft picks, unless it's, someone that, really moves the needle we're going to. Tech loss talk less about their free agents, because now we could talk about our in season stuff. So we could talk about stuff that they've done this season. That's more relevant. And, we're going to hit on that and just get you more prepared for the game. So I'll just hit on it, maybe a couple of their draft picks Jacob, and let's move quickly through the free agents. And then we'll move on to like the injury report and stuff like that.
Jacob Litton:Yeah, so, I mean, I'm not gonna touch on too many of these draft picks. They did only have one first round pick. It was the big defensive lineman, Byron Murphy out of Texas. That was a huge gift for them outside of him kind of, they had a third couple of fourth, they had some late round picks, some role players, nobody necessarily that we really need to worry about. Their third round pick was a offensive lineman, Christian Haynes. And rounder, actually, we should know him cause he is a tight end out of Michigan, AJ Parner. So. Not too big on the draft fix for the Seahawks, not that they really needed it as much, but some more notable, free agent or off season moves, they released Jamal Adams and Quandre Diggs both their safeties, they also moved on from Bobby Wagner, Jordan Brooks, they did re sign their tight end Noah Fant, and then the huge, defensive lineman Leonard Williams, That was big for them. And they also acquired Tyrell Dodson, Jerome Baker, another big, you know, worth mentioning is that Pete Carroll is no longer the coach of the Seahawks for the first time since 2010. They're going to have a new coach behind the sideline. Somebody else we're familiar with and that's Mike McDonald and he, former defensive coordinator for the University of Michigan. Defensive minded coach young coach. So I mean, fully revamped Seahawks
Jason Harwood:Yep, still going to be hard playing. It's going to be weird not seeing Pete Carroll roaming the sidelines, I can't imagine that Mike McDonald's going to be as animated as Pete Carroll was when he would come down that side.
Jacob Litton:He never was, when he was defensive coordinator. So, I mean, I, I don't see it happening
Jason Harwood:I don't see it happening either. But yeah, Pete Carroll was just, either had a huge smile on his face, or he's throwing his headset to the ground and, in disgust of something that happened.
Jacob Litton:Yeah
Jason Harwood:All right. Jacob, why don't you let us know the impact players. I know you got some stats here, um, that we should be looking out for on the Seattle Seahawks football team.
Jacob Litton:Yeah. Here we go. The impact players for the Seahawks. Thus far, the season is still young. Uh, we have quarterback Gino Smith Pro football Focus ranks him as the sixth quarterback right now in the league. Their left tackle, Charles Cross, is actually rated number one, uh, offensive tackle and pro football focus. have both safeties on the Seahawks team. The free safety, Julian Love, is actually the number one ranked safety. And then the strong safety, Rayshon Jenkins, is ranked number ten. Julian Love is also number 95 on the NFL top 100 this year. So he's somebody that, you know, we're already aware of Rayshawn coming along nicely, cornerback Tariq woolen, number five, cornerback, according to pro football focus, he was rated number one on the NFL top 100 and then defensive lineman Leonard Williams, who's injured. We don't know if he's playing yet, but he's rated number five. And pro football focus for the defensive line. So those are the impact players as far as what their pro football focus rankings and everything are. We do still have to mention DK Metcalf as an impact player. He's ranked 37th so far in pro football focus, take that for whatever you will, but he is ranked six and receiving yards this year and he was number 84 in the NFL top 100. We already know about DK. He's definitely an impact player in this game.
Jason Harwood:Yeah, I think we're going to have something, uh, something special to come out this weekend. Maybe, uh, based on our interviews about DK Metcalfe. So you have that to look forward to. we're recording this Wednesday night. Usually the first injury report has come out by on Wednesday. Not going to happen today. Everything's delayed a day because of Monday night football. However, with the lions, we have a pretty good idea of what that's going to look like. This week they've added Derek Barnes and Marcus Davenport to the IR. Marcus Davenport's probably done for the year with a torn tricep. Derek Barnes. Seems like he's going to be out for a little, for a bit. But sounds like he might be, designated for a return at some point. We're also going to have to deal with Sam LaPorta Lee McNeil. Has a shoulder issue. Brian Branch had a concussion. Alex Anzalone, we still don't know. He flew out there, was questionable, end up not playing. Hopefully he's going to be back. And then, Frank Ragnow, last, we found out late Monday night that he had partially torn peck. 97 1 ticket I had an interview with Dan Campbell yesterday and said, Frank's, petitioning to play in the game. We'll see with the bi week the following week, I could really see them shutting Frank down to just give him two, two weeks to rest up and then reassess after the break. But like I said, we don't have a practice report. So we, we really don't know how that's going to go with Seattle. Do you want to go through any of that Jacob with Seattle? I think we have. Yeah,
Jacob Litton:just kind of what we know based on what happened last week and what's expected. The biggest name on here is going to be their running back Kenneth Walker. He only played week one. He's been out since then. They still, list them as questionable up until the game last week. And then he didn't end up playing linebacker Jerome Baker. Also questionable there are other linebacker also going to be questionable. And then they've got the big defensive lineman, Leonard Williams and Byron Murphy Not really much information on them, but they may not play and that would be huge losses for them as well as Their offensive tackle abraham lucas, seems to be a trend that every week Whoever we play whoever's lining up across aiden hutchinson seems to
Jason Harwood:yeah, I wonder if that's a coincidence or they're like, taking this week off. Let the backup deal with this.
Jacob Litton:Yeah,
Jason Harwood:I don't
Jacob Litton:right
Jason Harwood:I don't want to be. Yeah, I don't want to be running this much. This is too much. As far as these injuries, we do have the benefit of. An extra day. So like, for Brian branch, they may prove vital because of the concussion, having an extra day may, may really prove beneficial to get him on the field. We'll see what the other guys, like I said, we don't know about, too much about their practice. We'll learn about that over the next coming days, leading all the way up until Monday night. And we'll see how they go. Regardless, a lot of these injuries happen Sunday. And our defense still played really well. Derek Barnes only played 11 snaps. Liam McNeil only played 15. We still played really, solid football solid defensive football in that game. So, the lines will make do next man up and they'll take care of business. So, As far as Seattle, they're coming in 3 0. Jacob, do you want to go through who they've beaten in these three weeks?
Jacob Litton:Right. They are three, you know, uh, I will not say that they have had very many losses impressive games or impressive opponents necessarily. Week one, they beat the Denver Broncos rookie bonus debut. Now they beat them 26 to 20 week two. They played the new England Patriots in new England. And that game went into overtime and they won 23 to 20. That was not against a rookie quarterback that was against Brissette. And then week three last week, they ended up beating the Miami dolphins, 24 to three. And. was without Tua, the Dolphins started Skylar Thompson, and they ended up going with Tim Boyle to finish the game. Anytime you have to go to Tim Boyle when you're in Week 3 is not, not a good look. So Miami's scrambling, they need to do something now. But, the Seahawks, whoever's across from you, that's who you have to beat. And they're beating them, and they did what was expected of them. And they, they looked good doing it.
Jason Harwood:The lions are going to be the first big test. For Seattle also being on Monday night, they've had our number like we mentioned in the intro we're ready to have a good showing here before we get on to our interviews Let's just get you ready for a little bit for this contest and get you ready for these interviews And you can just kind of see where seattle ranks overall right now in the nfl again, we're three games in we've talked about their opponents. Things are very variable based on who you're playing and stuff like that. But, nonetheless, you could let you know where these teams stand. So offensively, Seattle's ranked eighth in yards per game. They're third in the NFL and passing yards per game. Whereas they're 23rd in NFL and rushing yards per game. Now, like I said, Kenneth Walker has been hurt, so that probably affects that somewhat. Seattle has been wanting to be a Russian team. Now we don't know with Mike McDonald, what he's going to prior to prioritize come from Michigan, being a defensive coach. I'm thinking running the ball is, he's going to want to be able to do that very well. So, when Kent Walker gets back, we'll see how they do. As far as their defensive rankings, they. Are again, highly rated in defense. But they've, again, let's reiterate, they played a rookie quarterback week, number one, new England Patriots, their offensive line is probably one of the worst, if not the worst in the NFL. And, they played a two or less Miami dolphins team. So, they're, They've had some probably weaker offensive teams play again. So not that it accounts for everything, but that's probably why they're ranked so high right now. Their first and passing yards per game 15th in the run. They are, they are given the quarterback's time to throw their, their 20th and time to throw. So they're allowing the quarterback a little bit of time back there, which it's good for Jared Goff. They're ninth in sacks. They don't blitz a lot. They're 26. And blitz rate. So as of right now, they're not blitzing now. That could be also who they're playing, you know, again, it's early. So they could, they might not have had to blitz just because of who they're playing. And maybe, with the lions, they'll have a different plan, but as of right now, they're not blitzing a lot. And they are fourth and yak, so they are not allowing receivers, running backs to get a lot of yards after catch, which, They have a really good secondary, so that doesn't surprise me.
Jacob Litton:absolutely secondary is one of the top in the league. They had to replace Jamal Adams and quandary digs and their safeties back there right now are doing just as well, obviously it's early, but they're doing just as well, if not better than what, the other two showed out.
Jason Harwood:So, all right, now that we've got you primed and ready what this Seattle team is about, we are going to get into our interviews. So we will talk with you guys and give us our keys to the game and stats to look out for and our grip picks and everything on the other side of these interviews. I hope you enjoy.I want to welcome everybody here. We have Brandon Cain.. He's host of the Hawk's Nest. He is knower of all Seahawk knowledge. So we've asked him to be on this podcast to, inform you Detroit Lions fans. what we're up against this week. So first of all, Brandon, thank you for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Tell us about the Hawks nest, how long you've been doing it
Brandon Cain:well, thank you very much. That's kind of opening. Uh, my name is Brandon Cain. I'm on the Hawks nest on YouTube. I've been doing this for five years over on that side of it, covering my Seahawks team. I've been a fan since very on early in the eighties to date myself as yes, I am that old, but, uh, love my team, uh, love covering it with as much depth as I can while, At the same time, learning along with everybody else on, on this great sport of football, because the thing I really appreciate about it, the same thing else is that there are so many layers and enjoying it. You can just like it as a fan at the surface level and just watching athletes be at their best, but then you can start to dive into other things, schematics, the X's and O's, the game within the game that's going on back and forth, how these teams prospect and look at those guys and. Putting that together with that plan and how interesting that is. First, I think sometimes other sports where it's like hit the ball or not put the ball in the basket or not. I mean, there's some stuff they're running, but I think football is on a much more different level of complexity. I love that about it. And I love my team, man.
Jason Harwood:Oh, we love our team too. And, uh, let's talk about that. Your team has had our team's number the last few years. We're not salty
Brandon Cain:Hmm.
Jason Harwood:all. If you can. Tell, um, what, why is it, why have you had our number? I mean, can you pinpoint that? Cause I'd like to know, cause I'm going to call Dan Campbell after this and let him know. But you know, why is it, why have you guys had our numbers recently?
Brandon Cain:One of the good news is that you've, uh, it's two different reasons. The prior two years, I think overall, and I think that your team has taken steps to deal with those said reasons. Uh, so it's, that should at least provide some encouragement to Lions fans. A couple of years ago was our score Gomi game, 48, 45. I don't know that you can shake a lot at the offense, your lines offense, and say, there's something that left you wanting there. You put 45 on the board. You go, good job fellows. Not you today. Now, With the lines defense that day, we kind of was able to get them every which way, but lose. But I think specifically really the, the death shot, so to speak, came by the run game and, uh, an audible in that game to your heavy blitz. And you guys struggle, I think, stopping the run over all that day, both of our backs had pretty good, uh, success. So I think when I look at what you've done since then, you've reinforced your. Rush defense. They're mightily improved this year. I know there's some injuries you guys were dealing with, but I think that was a large part of it to a degree. Now the past defense was also bad that carried over to last year in our 36, uh, what? 37 31 game where again, I think we were able to throw the ball over you. You just didn't have the guys on the outside to hold up again, though you went into this off season, traded for Carlton Davis, went out there, drafted a branch out on that, uh, not branch, but, uh, Terry Arnold out on the outside. And that's. After you got branched in the second round, the prior year. So you've taken steps to try to get this improved. I mean, that's what I always ask about. My team is that, look, you're going to get stuff, right? You're going to get stuff wrong, but if you get stuff wrong, do you continue to make the same mistake or do you actually try to improve upon it and make it be something that you can fix? And so I don't know if the past defense is quite fixed for lines yet, but I do think the run defense is better. And I think that they have, um, continually improved this lion's team over time throughout that point. So, um, we did get the number, they were kind of two wild games, but at the end of the day, you're, I don't know, even in the second game, you can really point your offense. We got you at the end with a corner blitz. We never blitz. So that team didn't blitz. So if they blitzed you and they hit you, the corner blitz, it was going to surprise you. Kaka cough off guard. He got sacked. Next play, you come back, you show them a stack front golf's like, Oh my God, they're going to blitz again. Cause it was successful in the last play. Then you throw the pick six to Trey Brown. Then the whole scope of the game gets kind of flipped around at that point. Um, so that was a little more fluky ish. I would say, I mean, we played the game well, we beat you guys. I'm not saying that we didn't take it to you, but like at the end of the day, it wasn't something that we're, we're, we're woodshed every time we come into Detroit, like it's our house now it's it's we've, we've escaped. We've escaped.
Jason Harwood:kind, but I, your, your offense definitely took us to the woodshed and took us out back, but yeah, it's, it's just one of those things where it just seems like one team just. it comes out on top, in last year's game, you guys got in overtime right away and just, I mean, it was no question you guys just marched down the field and took us and, and it was quite different than the last, the half of the fourth quarter. The lion's defense had kind of played pretty well and got, uh, Gino and, sacked him down by the goal line and, um, we just couldn't finish at the end of the game and, went to overtime. Overtime and Gino took, uh, took over. So, so. You have a new coach, Mike McDonald. We're familiar with him because he came from Michigan. What's different under Mike McDonald? Uh, I know it's early, so you may not be able to see so much, but as far as between him and Pete Carroll, are you noticing anything or is it just kind of, you're trying to fill it out yet?
Brandon Cain:No, I think that there's been some very key differences and I think that this moving on from Carol didn't happen because he was suddenly a bad coach or that the game had completely passed him by. It's just that those things that had passed him by in the game, he hadn't really gone back to deal with and they had just kind of ever growed, worsened. It's almost like a gangrene growing on the body a little bit. And so it became very kind of clear over time to where this is not getting dealt with. This needs to be, these things right here need to be directly developed with. So for instance, we have a Brady Henderson from the Seahawks ESPN reporter today has an article coming out about accountability and the difference in accountability with this new staff and McDonald when he walked in the door verse, maybe a little bit of delays, a fair attitude that was there prior, and I don't want to seem like I'm bashing on Carol cause he's a great coach, legendary coach. Uh, best coach in Seahawks history brought us our first title, but at the same point in time. By the end, it was kind of what it was with that where, you, when you are a player's coach, you're always towing that line between the players taking that rope and keep pulling on the rope. First, you're giving'em the rope. They recognize the responsibility you're giving'em, and then they reward you for that with the work ethic and what they do with it. And early on, players. Did the ladder on that, especially those LLB teams later on, I think they just started to kind of keep taking rope. So accountability right off the gate is the thing that stands out. The secondary part, though, is the schematics X's and O's and that when you play this game, Carol has a bit of a thinking of it will line up and we'll do what we're going to do. And especially defensively speaking, we were 32nd in the NFL last year and consistently throughout Carol's time of whatever coverage we show you on the back end is the coverage you're going to get post snap. Meaning that if I'm a quarterback trying to read things prior to the snap, it's going to look very clearly to me. What you're going to do post snap. And so quarterbacks like a Jared Goff are going to like that a lot. You make it clear from him. He can be deadly. You can let me hit my back foot and trust my read know where I can go. I'm gonna be good with that. This carried over to offense to lack of motion, lack of targeting in the middle of the field, things that you were league worst at, as long with everything else. But defensively with McDonald, this is of course, what you get right on your ear with him from the jump, which is a guy that is never going to give you what he shows you. A lot of times it's the cover to shell in the back end, but those coverages will always change post snap, and he will run every kind of coverage in the book, including man. And so that means that whatever quarterback is thinking he's seeing come to the snap is not what he will be seeing post snaps. You're forcing quarterbacks to process post snap, which is a very keynote difference. And part of the reason why you're seeing the Hawks defense so dominant out the gate, the talent was there here. But the talent was being held back by the schematics.
Jacob Litton:So the Seahawks are creating a lot of pressure on the quarterback. How are they designing that pressure differently under McDonald?
Brandon Cain:Another, another great question. Another good spot that has been changed a little bit. Under the Carroll defense, you were not going to run much blitzes. You were not going to run a lot of simulated pressures. It was a front four. Needed to go and get home. It was kind of on their back to do so. And they, they didn't run a lot of games, but it got, again, easy for offenses to kind of predict what was coming. And if you don't have four real dogs up front to get home, you're relying on more one or two guys. Offenses can skew their protections to double team, the dogs on that defense, and then single up the other guys and not worry about it. And they'll have plenty of time in the pocket to pick you apart. Especially for a defense that wants to fall deep on the old side of things and leave stuff open underneath the new defense now runs these simulated pressures, which is what McDonald has done is he's taken the old buddy Ryan for 646 defense from the bears in the 85 and how it's updated through time. It's always been a defense that's built on stacking boxes and man to man on the outside. What he's done with his iteration is I like those stack boxes. Let's not bring the house as much less casino blitzes. Less of the man on man on the outside. Because what happens when these corners gets injured? We got to run backups. They got to still then run the man, man, man, man versus man concepts for zone. No, we got to build in the zone stuff into the defense too. And what these stack fronts do is that they freak the hell out of offensive lines and protections. Because when you bring extra guys up around the line of scrimmage, there's a natural inclination by offenses to change the protections. So if I have a running back here on the side of my quarterback with golf and Boy, Mafé's a real dangerous edge rusher. Naturally on our play, we're gonna get that chip to Mafé. But okay, I get double A gap mug pressure, two linebackers coming up to stand up in the A gap. Now you'll watch protections change where that running back will be funneled inside now, in front of the quarterback, but just to his side, so that the center can pick up one of the linebackers and he can pick up the other. This now allots Boye Mafia one on one where he might have had to have dealt with the chip prior. Now post snap, you still only bring four, you don't know which four are coming, but you still tend to only bring four. They'll bring for who knows which again, you got to process post snap, which here offensive line wise, but mafia gets his one on one. Your other edge rushers get their one on ones from this because the protections don't suddenly go that that running back doesn't suddenly go. Oh, the linebackers and coming and sprint out. He doesn't have enough time to do that to get out that edge. So it really messes up protections in a major way. And it is a thing where it's beautiful because you're essentially getting the benefits of kind of blitzing. without blitzing. You're still able to drop all those guys back in coverage and close down those passing windows. And so it's a real, this is why this defense is working so well right now, is it's getting a little bit of the best of both worlds.
Jacob Litton:Yeah, even though that Mike McDonald's only 37 years old. He's been in the game for a long time He's defensive minded under both the Harbaugh brothers You know really good to see him get an opportunity to be a head coach and you know Obviously, it's early on the defense really really looks legit,
Brandon Cain:I, I think it's coming together and I think it's still going to have its, days with a new coach coming into your point. It's the youngest coach, the NFL you're expecting. Look, it's gone well so far. We've had an easier schedule. That's helped us out,
Jacob Litton:right?
Brandon Cain:going to be some ups and downs on this as we go through the season, but you feel really good about the coach. You're getting the players in the way that they talk about this guy to a man is man, this guy's smart and he understands how to get it across. And he, it's that thing where you usually get the smart guys that seem to be a little bit of the introverts that yes, they're, they're brilliant, but they don't really know how to communicate it, or they're not really people persons to get it across. He seems to have a bit of both of that. You're going to feel for that. Even this article today that you read from ESPN on this with a reporter talking about some of this stuff and that you just. He has a way to be smart, but get that also across to the players to communicate and get them to pick it up quickly. And that's part of what makes him a great defensive mind, not a great defensive scheme. But a great defensive mind, and I think that there is a difference between the two.
Jason Harwood:I love listening to you talk. You, your stuff, this is like right off the back of your hand. This is awesome. Um, I to talk to you. We,
Brandon Cain:Thank you.
Jason Harwood:our intro part that you weren't a part of, we talked, you have new safeties back there. That's kind of tough because, uh, when you get new safeties back there, especially a communication standpoint, you lost Jamal and Quandre. How is that going? And, um, is the pressure up front, hiding some of that, um, so the problems that may be back there or the, is it just really solid all the way around in your, your, uh, secondary?
Brandon Cain:Well, Julian was here last year and he really played well for us. He, I think, had four or five interceptions for us last year as Jamal Adams was really injured most of the year and, uh, didn't hardly play at all. So it was really him back there, really manning things. Um, Jenkins has been a great addition. I think they're two of the top 10 rated safeties by PFF right now on the season. They are all around good players in that they can cover and they can tackle. Um, they're not, uh, not going to be game changers necessarily, but upper level players for the position. Again, giving you the well rounded, and this is part of what McDonald wants in his scheme now is less of a guy that has got the narrow pathway and his skills and what he does and more of the guy who has a toolkit. You can do it all because you're going to be asked to kind of do it all in this scheme. You might start out as a single high safety and end up as a slot corner. You might start as an outside corner and end up as a single high safety. So you've got to be able to do everything. And the thing these two safeties bring to the table and what you need to have in this defense is with the split safety look, the ability to have your free safety, do strong safety stuff and strong safety to do the free safety stuff. Whereas before 20 years ago, right? Safe, free safeties. Yeah. 14, 15 yards off the balls, strong safety is gonna be about nine to eight, depending on if you're playing the run or not, now they're even if you watch them on that alignment with that split safety look. And so they both have to have that skillset to do both. And these guys do. And that's part of the reason the defense is playing so well. So I would offer it's, it's really the, as much as the pressures are, are very impressive and they are very impressive. I think you could make the argument here. The strength of this defense right now is actually in the secondary, especially when you factor in the corners.
Jason Harwood:You have very good corners over there.
Jacob Litton:We'll stick with the defense before we cross over here. guess the question How do you think the Seahawks are gonna attack the Lions offense,
Brandon Cain:Mm. It's a good question. I think that the running game has had some tough, tough sledding for us. And we do have a new offensive coordinator here who's not just new offensive coordinator, of course, but from college, you don't often see OCs from college go to the NFL level and make that transition. And, uh, it's been okay. It's not been bad. I, it is a little bit more finding footing diverse McDonald who you might've thought you were going to see a little bit more of that, who you haven't really seen of that. He's been just smooth sailing. He's the boat goes right in the water and you're off. This has been a little bit more of. You feel your OC trying to kind of feel what works, what doesn't. I don't have the wide hash marks from college. How can I do it? The lineman can't take a three steps downfield on the screen game. They can take one step. There's some, I think there's some adjustment period going on here where he's quite literally still game to game here, feeling out offensively what he can and can't do. You have a lot of talent. And I think when you come down the lines game the last two years, and I probably should, I bury the lead on that. I think when it really breaks down to why we beat you guys last two years, there's all things in. Kind of take it into account. It's Gino Smith, Gino Smith played outstanding football. The last two years, he's played the, your guys team, uh, with the score Agami game, we couldn't have punted once in that game, one punt, and we lose that game one punt, and he's a guy that doesn't get a lot of, uh, I know credit nationally, and I think from some people, they just get stuck with the New York situation just in their head from 10 years ago, but this guy is a really good quarterback and a guy that between him and the skilled positions of players on the outside, even though you're. Around 29 30th and pass protection, even though you don't have a consistent running game, you've still been really good offensively because you can be explosive. And Gino right now is commanding the position. I, I, people will laugh at it, but this year, and in my opinion, I was playing top 10 to top five level right now. And that's, you've got to factor in with him. People don't like to do this math, but with a quarterback's play, it's oftentimes supporting cast last year. A defense was so bad it was living on the football field an extra literal game and a half in collective extra snaps on the season. What does that do to your offense? Moves a game and a half off the books from them too, right? It's a push pull game on that or an extra minutes created. You got to, uh, an offense last year that wouldn't target field 32nd rate. Talk about Carol and some of his, um, philosophy and why like, for instance, you're wondering an OT, why it clicked in, I'm going to give you a little indicator on this one, because. He didn't want to target the middle of the field because risk adverse nature, defensive minded coaches that are head coaches because he feels there's more turnovers to be had there than going to the outside to go outside of the, uh, the hash marks. So you're the 32nd team, the NFL target in the middle of the field. But what happens when you get to overtime? Well, then coach looks down at his OC and he goes, Dial it up. So if you go to your guys's game in that overtime, if you go to an Eagles game that we played in overtime last year, you'd see the same things at that time where we'd then catch defenses off guard because they're thinking, man, they're only staying on the outside. So they're not going to attack the middle throws. And now suddenly the throws are getting peppered inside. But you know, Smith's played outstanding football. It's going to have to be on his arm. If we beat you, you guys, I know are shorthanded. I'm a little cool. Yeah. It's a little dodgy your injury situation right now because guys are in that kind of Sub questionable state where you guys might come out there and be hey, it's it's actually kind of fine Or you guys might come out there and it's like we're we're holding on a little bit out here right now You know guys are guys are getting through but they're not at their best So it's hard to predict from that standpoint, but I just keep coming back to so far this year The run game's been really inconsistent. The past protection's been God awful. So it's really gonna come down to Gino and his decision making and, and when I tell you it's like control, it's, he's gonna have the th 20 seconds on the play clock. They're gonna give him the, the, the play and allow him to have the control to set things up because he's gonna run up tempo. He's gonna be back there, running it like he, and again, a guy doesn't get a lot of credit for doing this, but it's part of why I'm such a guy that has his back in a big way.'cause there's few quarterbacks that can run the show in this manner. Dealing with at times what he's having to deal with to make it go.
Jason Harwood:Nope. I, always feel, when you have a quarterback like Gino Smith, I always feel like that with Jared Goff, that. Um, people that don't watch them every day don't get to see what value they add to the team. They only see what's on, the highlight shows or whatever like that. When you have a guy like Jared Goff, Gino Smith, they're not necessarily going to be on those highlight shows, but they're, moving the ball and doing the things that, winning teams do.
Brandon Cain:I, I feel the very same way and it's you, it's been one of the great debates in my chat and it's been a debate, I've been on with Pro Geno since day one when he took over two years ago for Russ, um, for what the skill set he was bringing because he could do things at that time, for instance, Russ couldn't anymore, like play on script, play on time. Be more cognizant of the blitz when it's coming. Have a, have an answer for it. Um, there was just some things he had done to really grow his game. I call it the lonely work a quarterback does where, they, everybody expects these quarterbacks come in and shoot to the moon or not, and then they fail or not, and they say, okay, move on to the next, but it is a position that you can master over time and you get a guy 10 years in, who's been behind guys like Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Russell Wilson. Maybe he's had some time to learn a thing or two about a thing or two and the natural talent, certainly is there with them. And with golf, I agree it is as well. This guy's gone to a super bowl. This guy was, uh, a bounced ball off of defensive backs, face mask for a Brandon IU catch away from getting to a super bowl a second time. And that's where I come back to. Everyone thinks about the superhero quarterback. That's going to go fly on high and carry everybody off. And I call it the Brady Mahomes effect, where I think we've had two goats come down the line recently. And it's, it's messed up people's head at looking at the position and rather than now being still thinking about the supporting cast and building a really great team, it becomes just about that quarterback of the future. Get the guy. That's the guy. Easy. The guy. They start using words like that that don't mean anything, but it's these like all encompassing words to try to say, you need that guy to do it. It's like, there's few of those guys walking the planet and you can do it another way. And I agree. I think your lines can win a Superbowl with golf because they've set the team to do so with him. If you ask off to drop back like 53 times, like you did a couple of weeks ago. Not his game. Not what you should be doing with him. If you run a balanced attack, you give him pass protection up front and you don't have your defense as leaky as it's been a little bit at times over the past couple of other years, he can go get you a Super Bowl. That's to me, that's, I think he can, and, and, um, again, the Patriots came out with that Superbowl in the Rams, man, that the play, the game plan that they came out with them with the six man fronts in that game. And I was going to throw off any kind of quarterback for what that Rams team had been just breezing through on that season versus hitting that game. Um, but he's a good quarterback. I agree. I'm not meaning to go on a tangent here, but I think Jared Goff is a high quality quarterback. I think he does need the supporting cast around him. To excel in that way, because even compared to like, like Gino, there's gonna be a lack of mobility, lack of ability to create on like, I don't think golf's running a 45 yard run in the open field like we saw from Gino this year, where he's juking a guy in the open field. I don't think golf's got that in his bag, but good quarterback and he can absolutely get you the trophy as long as these things are in the right place and they are the lines have set the stage right.
Jason Harwood:short because he ran for a first down at the last game. He got a whole seven yards and ice that game. So you're selling them short. I agree with everything
Brandon Cain:There we go.
Jason Harwood:but
Brandon Cain:we go.
Jason Harwood:yeah, no, he's not juking anybody in the open field, but you know, he, it was, it's like the Peyton Manning rush in the end zone, like bootleg. Cause no one expected Peyton Manning to ever do that. Same
Brandon Cain:yeah.
Jason Harwood:golf,
Brandon Cain:It's when he does go to it's wide open though, so you just got to keep that in your bag to bring out every once in a while, keep them honest.
Jason Harwood:kind of, um, you talked about Jared Goff having weapons around, more, more talent on this team. Uh, into that, what concerns you about this lion's team? When you see this game coming up, what's the thing that you point to?
Brandon Cain:I think we're going to give your passing attack a little bit of problems because so much of I think the lines passing attack is built on option routes. Um, not all of it, I'm not saying, but there's a heavy amount of that baked within and what they do, especially with the online St. Brown stuff, which is working off leverage and with McDonald's changing of coverages post snap and how wildly he'll flow it. So I think part of a little bit of what gave golf problems last year, coming into Baltimore in that game, I know you guys came into that with some injuries and there's some other things that play as to why you lost that game a little bit, but I think that that does inherently give it issues. First, let's say we. We're going to run cover three golf walks of the line of scrimmage. He sees off coverage on the outside with the corners. He's going, okay, see cover three indicators here. My in cutting route off of the leverage will work here. That cover will still be on that corner will still be on top on the receiver. So the in cutting routes likely to work if we're reading this on the fly and kind of an option route basis. So I'm not as super concerned as the, with the passing attack. Um, I think they're going to be. Very careful with us too, with our pass rush and especially here without rag now, but I do think the rushing attack for the lions is, is very close to being called deadly. I think you guys have very close to probably the best two headed rushing attack and football, and they are a pure thunder and lightning scenario that so many teams aspire for. And we're trying to aspire for that same thing with our two backs. But you guys have it on point right now and rolling is we haven't quite. Gotten both of our guys rolling healthy and make it work. But you really saw the benefits in that Arizona game. You come back off the 53 attempts with golf the prior week, you come back in this go, okay, now we're going to mess around anymore with this. We can, we can take it to this Arizona front for they can't, if we just run downhill and two to one, our run to pass here, we're going to win this football game. And, and you did, and you were able to lean on that. And it was impressive to watch you guys physically take it to it. It was, it was kind of funny. I'm I do an NFC West round table show. So I had to do a preview. I had to look at the game of the Rams, the 49ers a little bit deeper. And then right after that, I go to your guys's game with the Cardinals. And it was like going from a matrix movie fight. It's like super fast punches to watching like a bar room back alley brawl between two guys that are drunk. They're just throwing haymakers at each other because the game was so physical and I thought Arizona rose as much as they could to the occasion on it more talented team. But I thought that they did a good job of giving you their best punch to in that game where it was. It's a, it was a wild difference to watch between the two games. And that's something your Alliance team does bring is that physicality. So when I go to that running game and that physicality you bring, and we've had a little bit of an issue at stop of the run, just to a degree this year, starting off, that's the place I think that you guys can make some, Hey, especially if you stay committed to it, like you did this past week, if you can not take the bait a little bit and get drawn back in another way, then, uh, you should be fine.
Jason Harwood:All right, Brandon, you go and have a good show tonight. And, uh, yeah, thank you so much.
Brandon Cain:Thank you for having me on guys. It was great shopping it up with you guys.
Jason Harwood:Have a good night.
Jacob Litton:For sure
Jason Harwood:right. I want to welcome Mike Dugger here. He's a reporter for the athletics reports on the Seahawks, a team that the Lions are going to be facing this week. So Mike, tell us how long that you've been working with the athletic and how long have you been reporting for the Seahawks?
Mike Dugar:Uh, joined The Athletic in 2018, kind of the early years of when I was still a startup. I've been doing the Seahawks since 2017. So this is year, whatever that amounts to. I started traveling in 2018. That's been fun. I think I've been to Detroit like three, four times already. One of my favorite road trip cities. I love it. Uh, so I can't wait to get back out there, uh, for primetime.
Jason Harwood:So, all right, let's get, let's get in on this. So I want to start out with Devin Witherspoon. He was nearly a lion. what kind of player did the lions miss out on with you guys, taking them right before our pick?
Mike Dugar:Yeah. I think he's just a do it all player that you need in today's game. The nickel spot is so valuable because you're in the middle of the action. I mean, nickels, essentially the new base. Now you're so involved in the run fits. It's critical with all these teams playing too high now, too high safeties. Your nickel's gotta be, he's got to cover like a corner and hit like a linebacker, he's got to have a really unique set of skills, kind of Liam Neeson is ask, in that regard. And he has that for what it's worth. I think branch has that too. Like there were 2 guys that. to mock them to the Seahawks, but it just felt weird to take a corner that high that year, I was just like, both of these guys can can play and they can play in the middle. And spoon was a little bit more of a projection because he didn't play in the middle of Illinois defense. They just played man a ton. So he ended up getting a lot of slot snaps, he wasn't a true nickel, whereas branch was in Bama's defense. But I, I think they're similar. DK got asked if they're similar. He said, no. And then said, spoons one of the best DBS has ever seen. So I will defer to him. He knows more ball than I do, but I saw like in terms of Seahawks need them being pretty similar branch, I guess maybe falls more into like the big nickel, uh, like a third safety version of it, whereas spoon is more like traditional slot, but in effect, you're getting the same thing. You're getting run support. Some coverage stuff, in the flats, carrying some verticals and stuff. So, uh, I don't know much about Brian's personality, but I do know spoons a dog, he's very smart. he's very physical. He's a trash talker. He can call out routes, um, before they happen. He's a great blitzer. He really has to do it all. Guy, to Pete Carroll called, he referred, or excuse me, compared him to Troy Polamalu on draft night. And not so much as play style, but just instincts. Troy knew what was coming. So it looked like he was moving faster than everyone else. Spoon's the same way. He knows what's coming. Last year against Detroit, I think was like some of his first action. So he didn't know what was coming in. He got bit on a flea flicker for a touchdown, I think. Uh, but you just don't see stuff like that happening since then. He he's his, his knowledge of ball. His, his IQ is through the roof, through the roof. You can hear him in training camp just being like, Hey, they're about to run a corner route. So watch out for the corner route. Then the corner route comes, it's just, he just smart knows that. So DK mentioned that today. as well. He said he was calling out DK's routes. He's like, you're doing that in year two. He's an impressive guy. He would have been great playing for Dan Campbell, uh, but the Seahawks are very happy that John Snyder and his guys snatched him up before the Lions could, because yeah, they were definitely going to take him if he was there. I
Jason Harwood:I agree with you. That was, that was going to be the plan. I was at Ford field when that pick went down and I was waiting for it to be announced. The guy in front of me had his phone out and he's like, you're never going to just happened. And it, cause I just thought we were getting spoon. I just thought it was going to happen and, uh, just didn't work out that way, but I'll take a Jameer Gibbs and Laporta. That's all right. Consolation prize. We'll take it.
Mike Dugar:mean, it's a really good class. As you guys know, that rookie class is nails. Not like you, Lions made it further than the Seahawks did last year, right? So I mean,
Jason Harwood:yeah.
Jacob Litton:Hey, the Seahawks, you hit on back to back cornerback picks, though. The year before that was Tariq Woolen, right?
Mike Dugar:Yeah. Back to back pro bowlers as rookies. Yeah.
Jacob Litton:Heck of a way to build a secondary back to back.
Mike Dugar:at the expense of though, then they had to, they just compensated by at the expense of the front though. Then they had to go trade for Leonard Williams and pay him and go draft Byron Murphy, the second out of Texas, their first pick last year. And, uh, they paid Draymond Jones, uh, in the off season going into 2020. Two, I think it was a 23. Can't remember. So, I mean, yep, they built the secondary on the cheap, but then they had to go pay for the D line. Whereas, you got, you guys can get like Marcus and, uh, McNeil and Hutch and have that, Levi and have that D line look a lot better. Um, and then have to go kind of use the other assets on the, on the back end. I mean, it's, there's no wrong way to do it. The Detroit and Seattle have just gone about, having a better defense than they've had in the matchups against each other. They've both tried to do that. They just have gone about it different ways. Cause I mean, both D coordinators were just looking awful in the first two matchups between these guys. They want the third one to be way better.
Jacob Litton:For sure.
Jason Harwood:Yeah.
Jacob Litton:All right, switching it up here. So we're gonna talk about, uh, Gino Smith. So in your opinion, do you think that he is a franchise NFL quarterback? And then overall, how do you think Seahawks fans think of Gino? How do they feel about him?
Mike Dugar:I feel like a lot of them are torn on the answer to that question. Partly because of age. I think Gino turns 34 next month. It's kind of hard to build around that. I think he is just because. For instance, my colleague Mike Sando does his quarterback tears column every year, um, and he solicits opinions from 50 NFL execs and coaches and stuff like that, and they rank them and they tear them. And the definition of the tears is always put into the column, which I love. You got to have a criteria if you're going to make rankings. Gino was in tier three. I don't have the full definition in front of me, but that tier was defined loosely as guys who can win you games, but they need a, they need to run support. They need a good defense back in them. And then tier two is like guys who can handle pure drop back situations. Don't necessarily need the ground game. you can kind of win because of them and what they can do. And then tier one is just basically my homes. Uh, that's the definition. Is he Mahomes? Yes, then he's tier one. If he's not Mahomes, then he's like tier, top of tier two. And I just, Geno just doesn't make sense as a tier three guy to me. The Seahawks haven't had a run game really the last couple years. Haven't had a defense and Geno's been fine. He is that guy you can win a game because of with his arm, it doesn't have to be against a bad team. He can do it against a good, a good team at the very least a good defense. At least, we've seen, do that. Um, he hasn't played super well in primetime, which I think is part of why some people outside of Seattle may be torn on them. It's just the nature of the biz. There'd be like 12 games on it, one o'clock Eastern or whatever, as the Seahawks are playing, how many people are watching, where versus Thursday night, Sunday night, Monday night. So I think he can kind of help his national reputation, but it just me in particular. I just think he's. Got what you need as a quarterback, he can run quick game stuff. There's not like a part of the field where he obviously struggles. And there are even some like guys people would take over him that that's super apparent. Like even Jalen Hurts, right? Jalen Hurts just loved doing outside the numbers, deep shot, loves it. He's great at it. He's got A. J. Brown. They kill it, to, uh, spams the middle of the field, right? It's his thing. Lamar Jackson, same thing, middle of the field, outside the numbers, Lamar's not as hot. There's these quarterbacks who have these obvious drawbacks, but doesn't really have that. It kind of reminds me of Matt Stafford where it's like run quick game under center play action, shotgun play action. You want me to throw an opposite hash? throw outside the numbers out route, got it deep shot, above too high safeties run that post to tie a locket nails, single coverage on the outside, go ball to DK drops it in a bucket, like all the, he can make all of the throws, and he, he's willing to stand in there cause he's tall and got a big arm. He's willing to stand in there and take shots and throw stuff over the middle. He had a 71 yard touchdown to DK. I guess the dolphins, he didn't even hitch up, he takes no steps forward. Just all armed, just like 50 yards, DK has to slow up a little bit, but I mean, it's on the money enough with no hitch his center getting walked backwards, like, that's, those are the type of guys. I feel like if you build it around them, they can make it happen. And then he's not totally a statue either, like I'm describing is Stafford as well. But then Stafford, once his old line goes to hell, so to see, he's not as mobile. Gino can move to if he needs to. He doesn't like running, but he can, he can do it. So yeah, I'm not saying he's like my homes or anything, but there, there are quarterbacks who have gotten further in the playoffs than Gino, who I don't think are as good as Gino. It's just been built better around him, so I feel like he's one of those guys. You just build it better around him. And yeah, I think he can get you As far as you want to go, I don't think there's any, there's not, there's not a scenario where I would go into an NFC game in the playoffs and think, wow, the other quarterbacks 100 percent guaranteed to outplay Gino in this playoff game. There's not, there's just not one. I feel like maybe Brock because of how good he's been in the playoffs. But I mean, even then. If you give, those weapons and a line, a play caller, who's to say he doesn't put up crazy numbers to,
Jacob Litton:Right. I think the thing about Gino is because of, obviously when he came into the league with the jets and. We just had the really disastrous couple of seasons there, then he had all the injuries and he went like, from team to team for those couple of years, I think maybe that's why the perception of Gino is that, maybe he's not any good and that he just kind of latched on with a good team. But, I mean, when he was given a chance to start again, 2022, he really, he did a great job and I mean, he's been performing every chance that he gets. I think he's a solid NFL quarterback, he just doesn't really get a whole lot of love. Yeah.
Mike Dugar:I mean, there's something to be said for that as, as valuable as it is to get a rookie quarterback, who's good while he's still on the rookie deal. A it's hard and be, there's just so many growing pains you have to deal with, even the really good ones. Look at Jaden Daniels. He just bought out on Monday night football, but he didn't throw a touchdown before Monday, not to say the only metric for quarterbacks is throwing a touchdown, but you know, it takes some time. Anthony Richardson is a great talent. That takes some time. Even CJ's tryout. I don't think he can move the ball in his first game as a rookie, against the Ravens, his last game was against the Ravens and he couldn't move the ball against them either. Right. First game and last game, same result. Couldn't even score an offensive touchdown on the Ravens. Like it's, it's tough with the rookies, even if they're good, like CJ. right away. It still takes time. C. J. Just look like a deer in headlights against the Vikings last weekend, so, um, the veterans who have seen every blitz look every safety rotation gone against coordinators multiple times at that time on task matters to if you're a team that's trying to win right away. Golf very similar. He's he's a few years younger than Gino, but he's been the league so long that all these coaches and coordinators can switch. Teams and everything. But there's just golf can be like, yeah, I saw this guy. He went, he was from this tree. He runs these types of blitzes. It just helps not to say it guarantees that you perform well, but you, you got it, you got that memory bank of, of stuff, Gino has that too. There's a lot of right now in the league, there's a lot of safety rotations, there's a lot of. Um, mugging the a gaps on third and a million, and dropping into these exotic coverages and stuff. And, Gina used to go against Rex Ryan defenses, so there ain't no overload front or mugged up look that he ain't got to look at, as a young guy. So that type of stuff is invaluable well. That's another reason why I think that. could be a guy who takes you to the promised land if you build it around him because the mind, the mind has to be there. You're going to go win road playoff games and stuff like that. You don't got time to be frazzled by no double A gap look that drops in the cover for whatever you got to be able to just sniff that out. And that takes time. Even the really good quarterbacks that takes time. So he's been in the league for what, it's like, like I said, about 10 34. So, yeah, I think he's really solid, man. If they build it right, can get them where they need to be. I think,
Jason Harwood:Yeah, I think brought up golf at, their games different, but it's similar to the experience takes you a long way and just being able to calm a situation. We saw it in the last year with the lions, your golf, that was a huge moment and he was able weather that that storm and to, bring us, some, Playoff wins. I, Gino was in the same boat. I think he can, he gets in that position with a good team. He is, he's going to, he can do it.
Mike Dugar:yeah, I think this is golf's second time or second franchise. He's been on and on both of them at different points. He's had the best line in the league, like this. It's not a coincidence, that 20, I think it was a 2018 Rams team had the best line in the league. And then think this year's lions and last year's lions. You can say last year's Eagles if you want, but like they're one A and one B for me. So either way, he's had a top two O line twice, whereas I don't think Gino's ever had a top 10 O line, that, that matters as well. He's Gino and Goff had both had weapons to throw to that part. Undeniable, but I think really up front, that's, that's where the difference in their two careers really shows up for me as guys who, um, had to switch franchises to maybe get a better look. Like, I think the old line stuff is, it sticks out like a sore thumb to me. I don't care how good you are. If you don't got to align, you're going to be screwed eventually.
Jason Harwood:Well, I mean, it's more apparent for golf that, that. Cause he doesn't have the that, Gino, he doesn't, not that he likes to run, but he's a little, obviously more Jerk off, but yeah, if you give any quarterback time, they're going to tear it up. All right. Let's talk we, uh, we're talking about the talent surrounding Gino, Kenneth Walker. It's probably going to be, would be a big help if he's back. What's the latest news on him and are you feeling that he's going to be back? Or is there going to be another week off for him?
Mike Dugar:I have a new view of oblique injuries after watching Amanda Ross St. Brown on, uh, Receiver. Cause I mean, oblique is tough, man. Like you can play, it's one of those you can play through, but man, everything just probably feels like you're getting hit with a ton of bricks, right in the midsection. So, uh, that's what Ken's dealing with right now. I don't know if he'll play. I, they, um, they didn't put in my IR. When he got hurt in week one, thinking that, all right, maybe we can get him back. He practiced in like a limited capacity, I think last Friday, which is good news. Um, so they're hoping he can play if he can play, he would be, he's a game changer. I mean, people, people in the, uh, in michigan. No, like Ken's Ken's different. Ken, Ken, Ken, it could be 1st and 10 at the 20. might, he might could score, he's one of the few guys in the league, I think who's got that home run capability, at the running back spot at any spot. But yeah, but specifically at running back him. Breeze, Saquon, um, Derek Henry, like there's just some guys where, yeah, it's first, it's our first snap of the game, but we might score, and they're just, it's hard to replicate that. That's why DK is so valuable. It's just like, know, threw an interception last week, third and 15. It got returned to the six, the Dolphins ended up kicking a field goal. Gino's next snap was the 71 yard touchdown. Like sometimes you don't even need to, quarterbacks want to get in a rhythm after throwing a pick. It was like, I don't need no rhythm. Just let me throw deep to DK. All right. We're right back off the field. Touchdown. Ken's like that. It's like, If you need your offense to get a just hand it to number, uh, what's Ken number nine, hand it to number nine and he might just take a 65 yards to the crib. You don't even need to dial up anything else. Those those type of players are, are really hard to find. Gibbs is like that. I should add him to that list. Um, of just guys, you can just take it to the house. So I don't know if he'll play, but if he plays that really, I think evens things up. Because I think the Seahawks poly between the teams right now, both of them are dealing with the bazillion injuries. The first injury report that comes out is going to look, we're talking about this with Colton Pouncey on our Seahawks man to man pod. It's gonna look like a Costco receipt when the injury report drops for both of these teams. But if Seahawks and get Ken, I think that will really help their cause, particularly if uh, Some of these guys on the Detroit defense, um, McNeil and I know Davenport's already out. Any other guys who are questionable branch, if those guys are out and Ken's in, I think that's really helpful in the Seahawks favor. Yeah,
Jason Harwood:Yeah, we're, I don't know. I don't want to see anybody injured, but yeah, if he's on the inactive list, I'll be a little more relieved. All right. Let's continue with the run game adjacent here. I mean, you kind of touched on this a little bit ago for a team that, you know, Seattle, even with Pete Carroll, a team that wanted to run the ball, but. They seem to have failed to either draft offensive linemen high or pay offensive linemen. Um, do you think that's going to continue under McDonald or, why have they decided to go this route? It just seems like, that's been an issue for a while with Seattle.
Mike Dugar:I think it's just poor evaluation. Um, for a long time, they've, they've drafted a lot of linemen. They've signed a lot in the off season and it just, just hasn't worked out consistently. Uh, I think they've only signed one offensive lineman to a multi year extension that they, someone that they've drafted. I think that was Justin Britt. In 2017, so it's just been a lot of bad, bad picks really. And in some cases they've had some guys who they picked them and then they went to other teams and just sucked, maybe that just bad player, but then they've had some other guys who have like gone on to have fine careers. James Carpenter played in the league a long time after they took him in the first round of 2011. Mark Lewinsky was a think a day two or three pick in like 2015 or 16 ended up playing a long time. Uh, I think with with Indy for a little bit there, uh, Ethan Post, it was a guy that took in 2017, didn't work out here and then was like on a really good Browns O line for like a year or two. it's just, uh, I think the evals were bad for a long time. I think playing with Russ is really hard for alignment and that took a lot to adjusting to, especially with the tackles. Because there's just so much rhythm that goes with the quarterback and his tackles, how much depth he gets on his drops, where the rush lanes are, where you can scramble to and Russ. I mean, everybody knows you see the highlights. I do was just doing triple axles in the backfield. That's hard on your line, um, and he was one of those quarterbacks who's really nice. But also had like an area of the field that he wasn't like super great at, it was the middle of the field, that's a big deal for your line, so think it'll, it'll probably get a little better as they get to know Gino and what he's about and what he's good at. But still, I mean, gotta get guys who can just ultimately move guys off the ball. And they really struggled with that. I watched, watching the tape of the lions run game against the Cardinals this week, and then watching the Seahawks. Run game against the Dolphins. It was just night and day plans. Just moving guys off the ball, man. Whether it's with Gibbs, whether it's Montgomery, they're just moving them and they could just do whatever they wanted. And, uh, the Seahawks don't have that consistently. They can do it for a quarter or half, but it wouldn't be a great team. If you want to beat a really good team like the Lions, you gotta be able to do that for four quarters, man. You have two or three quarters where you can't run the rock. better. Hope you got the 85 bears on defense to hold it down till you figure it out.
Jacob Litton:Yeah. Next question, how do you think the Seahawks are going to attack the Lions defense?
Mike Dugar:Well, I think they need to try to get the run going early just to get Aiden off their back. Um, he's killing it. That's just, he's a monster, man. Uh, I was telling Colton this too, it was, I watched the film of all of, If Aiden's, Aiden's password snaps in a chronological order because of how we can watch film now, and you can just see how long it takes each team to start double teaming him and chipping him. And it's amazing how long it takes some of these teams this year. I'm like, yo, I did this off rip. The bucks took way too long.
Jason Harwood:They did.
Mike Dugar:there just destroying Baker and they were like, huh, let's help him out. And I was like, man.
Jason Harwood:Yeah.
Mike Dugar:I might have done that after like the first time he tried to take Baker's head off, so I think but the other way to avoid Aiden taking your quarterback's head off is to is to run the rock, you can run it at him. You run it away from him. But think at this point, teams need to start treating Aiden like the Saints treated Michael Parsons when they beat the breaks off the Cowboys. They were just running everything away from number 11. They were just like, no chance. Oh, and if we do drop back, play action, max protect slide to 11 side. We're gonna make sure he just can't get to Derek and I don't think he did at all. So I think the Seahawks would probably treat that the same way. Like, yeah, they're gonna get the ball to DK, throw deep balls, stuff to Jackson, Smith and Jigba, move the chain to tie lock it. That's all fine. The main thing is making sure 97 doesn't wreck your game plan, right? Because everything sounds good until 97 is in the backfield. It just, it really is. And they know that they dealt with that for years with someone like Aaron Donald. You can have this great plan. 99 wrecks it, right? That's why these guys in, uh, up front get paid so much, why they're drafted so high. And Aiden's looking like of those guys, I don't know much about Aiden personally, but I can imagine that he probably wants a little bit of quote unquote revenge. He did not play well last year. Against two backup tackles for the Seahawks. Stone Forsyth on the left, Jake Curran on the right. And they, after a while, they just stopped even chipping, stopped giving tight end help and everything. They were like, Oh, our guys can block 97. We're good. And we're able to put up points. I was sure Aiden watched that tape. Sure. He didn't like it. Uh, I don't know if he's been asked about it this week, but I'm sure he wants to prove that that was a little fluky and that he can get after these guys. Who knows if he will, but the Seahawks, I'm very sure we'll try to make sure that. They, their game plan is not wrecked by 97, whether in the past game or the run game, because if that happens, it's a slice out
Jacob Litton:I'm sure
Jason Harwood:I remember.
Jacob Litton:shot against, uh, Stone Forsyth. Um. Aiden Hutchinson and Charles Cross, that's a really good
Mike Dugar:great matchup.
Jacob Litton:They're probably gonna just try to move him over stone. I'm sure they're not gonna keep him over there on Charles too much.
Mike Dugar:Yeah. Probably. Although, I mean, if I was watching the tape, I'd not put them up there against Trent Williams, Laramie Tunsil. I mean, he's got that, that spin move. He can. I don't know how long, how long he's been working on that, but it looks really refined. Now the spin that he's been been showing, he's obviously had the athleticism and the power, but that's a, that's a nice counter. Um, that has just been looks like it's been just kicking team's ass early on this season.
Jacob Litton:And he's got some alterations and everything to it, too, so
Jason Harwood:He always had that motor, but now he's adding these moves and just counter moves on top of it. He's yeah, it's, it's been impressive. It's nice when you invest a high draft pick on someone and then they continue to get better and they don't just rely on what got them to be a high draft pick. And Aiden Hutchinson has been all that and more for us. Super happy with a guy like that. Um, Besides Aiden, what, concerns you about this Lions team, if you want to go on the offensive side of the ball, you can go that too,
Mike Dugar:um, I mean, Branch would be the guy, I talked about him earlier. I'm a big fan of him. If he's not concussed, hopefully he's not, he can play. Um, he would be the guy. I mean, McNeil has some good stuff to from what I've seen. I know he's a shoulder. I think
Jason Harwood:Mm hmm.
Mike Dugar:is such alliance. Davenport has given the Seahawks some issues. Cause he's just so freaking strong and he really
Jason Harwood:Yep.
Mike Dugar:like Aiden's got the pass rush moves. Marcus doesn't need him. He just, he just puts his arm on your tackle and eventually your tackle hits the dirt. That's the pass rush move. A, B and C. Uh, he would have been a problem. I mean, it really sucks to so banged up because those, this would have been some really good matchups. I guess we're really to flip it to the other side of the ball. Like what really kind of concerns me is stopping Jameer Gibbs and, and David Montgomery because the Seahawks are injured as well. Up front, byron Murphy, the second, their first round pick has a hamstring injury. And then Leonard Williams, their high priced defensive tackle has a rib injury. Either one of them finished the game against Miami. If you're missing both of them, that's tough, because the Seahawks are like a gap and a half, Read and play the blocks up front type of team. They're not really a super penetrating front necessarily. So you get, you need grown as men in there in the middle, guys who are real good, particularly against what I think is the best line, uh, in, in the NFL. So that would be an issue. Uh, cause like I said, I watched the Arizona tape. I was like, yo, they're moving guys off the ball. Arizona D line is not great, but still, they did what they had to do to. I'm surprised they didn't score more points considering how well they was running it. But that's that's a legitimate concern. The Seahawks has some tackling issues on defense in last year's game at every level. Backer the backfield, even in their DBs as well. So, um, this team tackles way better than that one. So it may not be as much of an issue, but who knows? It tackled real well in week one and then didn't in week two. So it's week to week league, uh, tackling Gibbs and Montgomery is going to be tough and the switch and what type of tackling you need to do will be interesting. Like David might just run through your face, gives my Jukia. And if they're both in on, in interchanging within drives, that's a, it's a nice one, two punch, man. That's hard to get to get a different mode to tackle those guys. Gibbs is more, your angles need to be right. And, your pads got to be on tight, So, uh, those two are, those
Jason Harwood:Okay.
Mike Dugar:are a problem. Best running back duo in the league to me.
Jason Harwood:Yeah, we, be saying that too. All right. Before we let you go, Mike, just tell us, where people can reach out to you and check out your stuff.
Mike Dugar:Follow me on X, Twitter, whatever it's called now. Um, at Mike Dugar, M I K E D U G A R. Pretty much everything I do is there in some capacity. The newest episode of the Seahawks Man to Man podcast is always pinned to the top of my profile. We're on Apple. We're on blue wire pods. We're on Spotify. We're on YouTube. All of those links are always on at the top of my, uh, they're pinned to the top. And then my author page for the athletic is in my bio on Twitter. So if you want to, Hey, what Mike, right? Bing just, you don't even got to scroll, hit the link in my bio and then you'll just pull up everything that I've done. So my Twitter is pretty much a one stop shop, uh, for all things, Mike.
Jason Harwood:All right. Well, I want to thank you again for joining us. Uh, awesome to talk to, man. You're very informative and just cool guy. So thanks for spending some time with us.
Mike Dugar:Oh yeah, no problem. Uh, enjoy the game
Jason Harwood:All right. I hope you guys enjoyed those interviews. It was great that, Mike and Brandon spent. Time with us and, I hope we all learned something there. Um, all right, Jacob, let's get into our keys to victory and the stats to be aware of, so let's start in the category of stats to be aware of, one thing that's going to be important, is to keep pressure on Gino. I noticed that Seattle has allowed pressure quickly this season. Teams that are able to get to Gino pretty quickly, and they average 2. 19 seconds to get to Gino. So he doesn't have very much time to throw the ball. So I think that that's important to look at. We talk about Kenneth Walker, is he going to play? We, we still don't know at this point, but he averages 5. 2 yards per carry, whereas their backup Zach Charbonnet, you know, former Michigan running back UCLA running back 3. 5 yards per carry. So it's almost two yards difference, between the two. Either way lines run defensive stout, alrighty. Let's get to your keys of victory. I'm gonna have you start this one off.
Jacob Litton:All right. First key to victory that I have is to put the pressure on, you know, and defend the pass. know that their rush offense has been struggling in our run. Defense has been outstanding. Obviously, as you just mentioned, we don't know if Kenneth Walker is going to play or not. He did play in the game last year and our run defense did a really good job. Keep him in check. He had 17 carries 43 yards. Didn't really do much. But we did get kind of tore up last year by Gino. we have a revamp secondary. This defense looks a lot better than it did last year, but we just really need to put more pressure on, and make him uncomfortable. He's only had to scramble out on two plays this year. he has had some other runs that were kind of designed or, maybe not pressured. He just, had time and decided to take off, but two times has he been under pressure that he's had to actually take off and run away and, get past the line of scrimmage, he may throw it away or kill the ball, he overall really has not been having to run very much. He's trusting his receivers. They've been able to move the ball. This is really going to be the Seahawks first real test against us. They haven't played, very strong opponents so far. They're going to come in ready. This is prime time. It's Monday night football. We owe it to the Seahawks to give them a snap back to reality and, kind of crush their spirit and, you know, win for the first time against the Seahawks since I believe it was 2012.
Jason Harwood:Yeah, it's been too long. Couple things I'll tell you that, uh, stats that are important about keeping, uh, pressure on Geno. So Geno has, in the league right now, the second highest completion percentage against man. the Lions play man the most in the league. So. whether we're going to change that up or we have to be very careful about that. And another thing is you say, well, keep pressure on, let's blitz. Gino's passer rating against a blitz is 107. When he's not blitzed, it's 86. 6. The blitz may not be the way to go. We'll see how the game goes, we have to get pressure. We're just our front four. Um, however, AJ did, Dials that up, without having Derek Barnes in there, that's, that's going to be a little more of a challenge because, we could, Derek Barnes could either rush or pull back and someone else rushes in his place and be a little more difficult. Marcus Davenport not being on there, uh, certainly is going to make a difference, but, uh, Levi on Zarique, hopefully Aleem plays, DJ Reader is going to be in there. And obviously we have, you know, Ace in the hole. We got Hutch out there. So we just have to. Get rushed with the, our front four, it'll, that, that'll be a key to the game.
Jacob Litton:Yeah, I think that Josh Pascal is probably going to get a lot more playing time to try to do what Davenport did, which is just You know what? Run this guy over like that's how we're going to create this pressure. Don't get fancy with it right into his chest, push him back into the quarterback, drive as far as you can without letting the edge up. obviously, you know, like you said, Derek Barnes, that's huge to not have him as a threat to rush or drop back. We may have to. You know, it's tough because you may have to be more vanilla with the defense. You can't disguise as many things if we're not going to be sending people. But at the same time, if you do that, then Gino is going to be able to pick you apart.
Jason Harwood:Hopefully branches back. That's another wild card back there with this concussion. Uh, or I need him in the backend, but yeah, we just kind of need to generate pressure, uh, with just four. So however, AG dials that up. All right, I'll go next. Um, kind of. Similar, I had, you know, uh, key pressure on Gino, but also, you know, let's not let DK get us on explosive plays, keep them, keep him in front of us. And, you know, if we can't let him get a 71 yard touchdown, like Miami, that's a, you know, that's a backbreaker right there. He's a big guy. He's going to be able to box you out. He's going to get his catches, but we just need to keep him in front of us. Keep the yak down and, don't allow them to get, big explosives.
Jacob Litton:For sure. I mean, they've got a solid set of receivers, so it's going to be interesting to see how we match up if, you know, Carlton Davis follows DK around or if we kind of let DK line up wherever he lays. And whether that be Terry on or branch CD, I mean, to be interesting to see how we play that. We've got the players now to hopefully hang with them. Yeah. We don't have Cam Sutton having to follow him around.
Jason Harwood:No, that's fine. Uh, so just a little bit on DK. He's had 17 receptions this year for 262, with two touchdowns. His average air yards per target is 12 and a half. So he gets the ball down the field. So you, we just have to be ready for that.
Jacob Litton:For sure.
Jason Harwood:All right, Jacob, got any more keys to victory?
Jacob Litton:Next one I have, so Their pass defense is top of the league. Top notch. Their run defense has really kind of been average. We need to run the ball. That's a huge key to victory. I think that this game probably needs to look a lot like it did last week. We've got the running backs, we can soften them up, know, if they do decide that they're going to stack the box, if they're going to keep everybody inside and really play the run, then we can try to, hit Amanrah or Jamo on some quick plays, get the ball outside, make them have to think about it just to soften that up again, just to, keep chugging along, keep it with the run. Run first. I mean, I really think when you do that, there's going to be at least an opportunity or two for Jamo to sneak one out and get a deep ball. I mean, they're not going to be ready for it. If we're running all game, if we do try to do that early on, I think, you know, it may not be the smartest game plan to try to test these guys right away. you know, by throwing too far deep. I think the key is going to have to be to run first.
Jason Harwood:Yep, I think it's run, play action pass, pull up their linebackers, free up that middle of the field. And if, you know, we got a special shot to Jamo, you take your chance when you, you can hit that. Jamo is the one that could take the top off any defense. We have that in our back pocket whenever, we decide to unleash that. Last week was not the week for Jamo. And just like Amun Ra the first week, Jamo didn't have a very good statistical line last week. I think just one reception, nine yards. You know, Amin Ra had a very, you know, 13 yards the first week. It's, that's the way this offense is going to go. It's going to be someone's week and someone's going to have to take a week off depending on how they go. I'm with you. We're going to have to run the ball. You heard both, Mike and Brandon both were scared about our run game. The only other key to victory that I have is, the injuries next man up, hopefully Anzalone is back. Um, otherwise we're, you know, Malcolm Rodriguez and Jack Campbell are really going to have to show the load. We'll have Jalen Reeves Maven in there. Neiman will be called up, you know, maybe Trevor Nowatzki, if, if Alex can't go, um, maybe he, you know, becomes active this week. Yeah, we're just going to need the next man up and hopefully branch can go. Um, we haven't seen, if he, maybe he hasn't practiced yet this year, but if branch can't go, hopefully if he can make it, uh, make it back.
Jacob Litton:be huge if he could. I mean, if Branch can't play and if he's out, you're looking at probably Brandon Joseph trying to slot in that role.
Jason Harwood:I
Jacob Litton:or you have Lauren Strickland. I don't know. I mean, just definitely not as dynamic of defenders. It's, it's going to be different.
Jason Harwood:mean, outside Aiden, you know, you're arguably taking it. Branch isn't out there. He's probably our second best, defender out there. dynamic defender. I mean, Alex is. Alex is up there too, but he could be out. So, I mean, defense could, we don't know how it's going to look, but hopefully given them an extra day, especially Branch with his concussion, you know, being this on Monday night, he might have a better shot of coming back. Um, but all right. Now that we've let you know how we're going to win our keys of victory, let's move on to grit picks. All right, first let's review last week. Uh, Both Jacob and I took the Jets. Jets won, Sunday night football. Jacob admitted to me that he fell asleep. He, old man, Jacob over here. I was up. Um, unfortunately my Falcons went for it on fourth down. I picked the Falcons went for it on fourth down and, uh, you know, couldn't get in the end zone. So Jacob got me on the Chiefs. We both picked, uh, Bills who just wiped the floor with the Jaguars. And then we didn't see Jane, Jane Daniels, uh, Breakout party coming. So we both picked the bangles and we're we're wrong on that. It was a you know, that was a
Jacob Litton:to see though.
Jason Harwood:Fun game.
Jacob Litton:fun game.
Jason Harwood:Yeah, exactly. That's what I was gonna say. It was a fun game to watch. It was those offensive, you know, battles going back and forth. All right, Um, Thursday Night Football. Cowboys at Giants. Who you got in this one?
Jacob Litton:I've got the cowboys beating the giants even though it's in in a giant stadium, I still got the Cowboys beating them.
Jason Harwood:I waffled on this man going back forth. I'm going to go with the Giants though.
Jacob Litton:Oh,
Jason Harwood:I see Devin Singletary running on Cowboys league worst rushing defense. So I'm licking my chaps in a couple weeks.
Jacob Litton:Singletary, you think he's gonna
Jason Harwood:Hey, Cowboys rush defense has been terrible. I'm really excited to see what the Lions do to this, if this rush defense is as bad. They're, they're 32nd ranked. Cowboys are 32nd ranked against the Rush right now.
Jacob Litton:they need to wake up soon.
Jason Harwood:Yeah. Um, all right. Bills again, uh, on a, you know, primetime game. It's a very good one on Sunday Night Football. This could be really good. Um, Bills at Ravens. Whatcha, whatcha feeling on this one?
Jacob Litton:You're first this
Jason Harwood:I'm first. I'm going Ravens. I think they're gonna, they're gonna get another one in the wing column here.
Jacob Litton:I actually went the same way. I think it's gonna be a heck of a game.
Jason Harwood:Yeah.
Jacob Litton:I think the Ravens, they're at home. time, you know, they've Not came out on the positive end of most of these games so far, I think they're gonna have to dig deep You know like like the Cowboys really it was early on, you know But the season's already not going the way you want it to you're gonna have to really fight it out here I think they're gonna get it done.
Jason Harwood:All right, and then there's two Monday night game again this week. I don't really like that. They do two Monday night games. I
Jacob Litton:I don't either you can't watch them both at the of the primetime?
Jason Harwood:Yeah, I don't get it. I don't know why they do that. Um, so obviously Seahawks at Detroit's one of them. We're not going to pick that. We've never discussed that. We don't pick the Detroit games. Um, but the Monday night football, the other one is, um, Titans at dolphins. Dolphins, you know, might have, uh, Huntley as their quarterback, um, already moving on from Tim Boyle and, uh, Skylar Thompson. So what do you, what, what you thinking on this one?
Jacob Litton:yeah, this one was kind of tough for me to pick because I feel like the Dolphins have the upper hand But if they were to start Skylar Thompson again after what we saw last week I don't think that they're gonna be able to get it done. But I mean they might start Huntley We don't know exactly what's going on yet. I I'm still going to say the Dolphins. I'm gonna pick the Dolphins to win. This one was a real 50 50 toss up for me But yeah, I'm not gonna feel that bad about you know, missing this one to watch the Lions game
Jason Harwood:All right, I'm going to pick the Titans. So I would like you to get, you know, I want you to save JJ's tears for me after the Dolphins lose on this.
Jacob Litton:I'll tell him you said
Jason Harwood:Yeah,
Jacob Litton:message you
Jason Harwood:yeah.
Jacob Litton:if they do
Jason Harwood:Well, he could have my tears. He kicked my butt. JJ kicked my butt in fantasy football last week, so he can have my tears for that.
Jacob Litton:I think Preston beat me, right? Or was that
Jason Harwood:Mm hmm.
Jacob Litton:One of them.
Jason Harwood:Um, yeah, they, you, you lost, uh, Preston, I think, so. I know, the kids are showing, uh,
Jacob Litton:so then it's Bradley that's in first place right
Jason Harwood:Bradley is 3 0 right now. Yeah, he, he mentioned that casually to me the other day. He's like, I'm the only 3 0 team in this league. Ha ha ha.
Jacob Litton:Glad he's having
Jason Harwood:Yeah, Bradley's, uh, by the way, Bradley's name of his fantasy football team is Amin Raz, my sunshine, which I think is hilarious. Uh, so, all right, let's go on to the great guarantee.
Jacob Litton:I'll go first. Alright. grit guarantee, I'm going bold again. It worked out last week, uh, with the, you know, 100 percent red zone.
Jason Harwood:Hmm.
Jacob Litton:I'm gonna say that we are going to score either a defensive or a special teams touchdown this game.
Jason Harwood:Ooh, wow. I like it.
Jacob Litton:but you know what? I think we're due for one. Maybe it'll come late in the game, and it'll just be a crushing blow. But I, you know, that's my guarantee is that either defensive or special teams touchdown will be scored by us.
Jason Harwood:It's a safety count in there. They get a safety. You're going to count that. Okay.
Jacob Litton:will count
Jason Harwood:All right. Cool. All right. Yeah. Cause they almost had dolphins almost got, you know, for a safety. That's when he threw that pick last week. Uh,
Jacob Litton:Jack Fox is pinning them deep, so maybe we'll
Jason Harwood:That's, that's a good thought. Um, mine, I'm actually going to pick the lions. They're going to give Seahawks the first loss of the year. And to do that, Kirby Joseph's going to get another interception. He's going to hit, hit, hit it again. So I don't know. I'm not going to say it's going to be in the end zone. Um, you know, but maybe he, that's the one he scores on to get your defensive touchdown. But I'm saying Kirby,
Jacob Litton:be cool?
Jason Harwood:Kirby's going to get another one. They're going to try to test him again, and he's going to be out there playing center field. So, uh, yeah. Yep, so all right, man. Another good, uh, another good Pride preview. We had, you know, two good interviews again. We're, we're getting lucky with that. It's, that's awesome.
Jacob Litton:It's been very cool.
Jason Harwood:It has,
Jacob Litton:you know, hearing the other side and what they think of our team and everything. So
Jason Harwood:yeah. And I like to hear it, like the Gino Smith stuff was very interesting to hear what they think about Gino Smith. You know, I, I, I think the comparison that we've talked about to jerk off is very interesting. Just like the outside view and the inside view are a lot different. Um, you know, as far as your quarterback. So yeah, it's great guys, both Brandon and, uh, and, um, Mike were great. And so, uh, wish them, wish them well, but not on Monday night, you know?
Jacob Litton:No,
Jason Harwood:All right, man. Well, we're going to head out of here. Uh, Got a primetime game. See those black jerseys. We're all excited about it. So let's go lions.
