Talking Grit: A Detroit Lions Podcast

E58: Lions' Offseason Beginnings: Coaching Losses and Gains

• Jason Harwood / Jacob Litton / Morgan Cannon • Season 1 • Episode 58

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In this episode of 'Talking Grit,' Jason Harwood and Jacob Litton dive into the eventful offseason of the Detroit Lions. They are joined by Morgan Cannon, who shares his insights. The discussion covers the loss and hiring of coaches, including Morgan's article 'Pain is Part of the Process.' The conversation shifts to evaluating Aaron Glenn as the new head coach of the Jets and Ben Johnson's move to the Bears. The team also examines potential new coaches, focusing on Kelvin Sheppard as the new defensive coordinator and John Morton possibly stepping in as the offensive coordinator. They end with reflections on the Lions' performances, upcoming free agents, and the feeling of optimism despite the challenges faced this season.

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Jason Harwood:

Welcome to talking grit. I'm Jason Harwood. And with me is Jacob Litton. We are at, we're in this boring part of the off season, but we've had some exciting stuff this week that we got to talk about here. We lost a couple of coaches. We've hired and interviewed some coaches. We are going to talk with Morgan Cannon. He's going to join us for this episode, give us his insight. I'm kind of curious how he's feeling after a week of, no lions football here, but before I do all this, I do not want to forget this. Morgan wrote a really good article. It's called. Pain is part of the process. The Detroit Lions will be back. It's up on pride to Detroit. If you're in pain, still read it. If you're not in pain, so, and you're kind of over it, still read it. It's a great article. So glad that you wrote that Morgan. I really enjoyed reading. And I think it's like part of the healing process as well. So thanks for coming on.

Morgan Cannon:

No, I appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me on. And yeah, thanks for the kind words about the article. It was cathartic to write that it took me a minute to get it down though. I'll be honest. Like, I had that article open for like, probably 2 days just because I was like, how do I get this across? without droning on, you know, I wanted to set the table a little bit, like how we would always wish for days like we just had, you know, even if it ended so abruptly but yeah, fun season to get, but you know, this is the beautiful thing about having like playing into the playoffs again, though, like the off season is so condensed. I feel like, you know, it's really like two months and we're in the thick of draft stuff, you know what I mean? Quick

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, yeah, I know I was thinking about that was like free agency is going to be just right around the corner. that is that is nice. We're not already looking at mock draft stuff. You know that that would have happened like 2 or 3 weeks ago and prior line seasons.

Morgan Cannon:

at least.

Jason Harwood:

I don't know about you

Jacob:

Probably like the week or two before the season ended, you're looking at mock drafts like where do I want, where do I hope we fall?

Jason Harwood:

yeah, I hope we lose these next couple of games so we can get the number two pick, right?

Jacob:

I've never said that.

Jason Harwood:

I know, I know, there would be plenty of people that would though. I don't know how you guys felt, but this was like weird, like, as these games are coming up on Sunday, it was, I was thinking, we just played like a week ago. For me, it felt like we had played so long ago. I don't know. It's cause of the loss or what happened, but did you guys feel like that too? Like it's only been a week since the Lions played.

Morgan Cannon:

No doubt. It was cold too, man. Like that whole, like it was just kind of a depressing time. I'll be honest. I was, I was, I was bummed. They lost. It was like negative 20 up in Detroit, man. With the wind chill. So yeah, it did. It felt like a long time. What about you, Jacob?

Jacob:

No, it was still fresh for me, man. I still felt like, man, we should be playing in this game. I should be ready for this right now. Sucks.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, we had, I don't know about you, Morgan, but my wife and I were just, we'd look at the clock on Sunday and we're like, we'd be driving up to Detroit right about now. Getting, getting it on, you know, getting

Jacob:

Gettin it on.

Jason Harwood:

yeah, well

Jacob:

On the way?

Jason Harwood:

Hey man, that's a good luck thing that's happened all year, man. I'm just joking. I got it.

Morgan Cannon:

Good

Jason Harwood:

I, I was hoping that you wouldn't catch that but nice. That's a good catch, Jacob. I've, you know, we'd be getting up there and, and doing our thing up at the stadium. So that was a little depressing, but I was still able to enjoy the two games on Sunday, even though the teams that won, I really didn't want to see this rematch at all.

Jacob:

I don't think anybody did. Right? I mean, we were all kind of hoping for some fresh faces in there, but Chiefs Eagles rematch.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. I don't even, are you guys have any rooting interests in the Superbowl?

Morgan Cannon:

No,

Jacob:

it sucks, but it'd be nice for Saquon, right? And then I like, you know, Quinnian Mitchell from Toledo.

Morgan Cannon:

I

Jacob:

You know, he's real close by, so that would be cool for him. But at the same time, that means the Eagles fan base would have to win another super bowl and they just do not deserve it. So it's you know, I can't really lean one way or another.

Morgan Cannon:

That's exactly, Jacob took it right out of my mouth, man. I like the Eagles from player standpoint. Like I don't, there's no, I like Darius slay. They got BG. like you said, Queen Mitchell from right down 75 right there. I, but hey, their fans suck. I'll just be honest. They

Jacob:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

there's good ones out there, but guess what, man, it's tough. I'm

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

to talk to Eagles fans at all for the rest of eternity, man. Cause already they're pretty tough to deal with on Twitter. So

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, well, we get ready because we face them next year, Morgan. So that I'll, I'll be getting my butter, my popcorn. And when that week happens, cause I know Morgan will be throwing it. We do go there. Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

Oh, good. I won't be gone. We'll be watching that one at home. Good.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I know. But you'll be fighting them, fighting them on Twitter. I know. I know you, Morgan.

Morgan Cannon:

going to get better by that. I'm, I'm, I'm not

Jacob:

No, you ain't.

Morgan Cannon:

probably not. You're

Jason Harwood:

Okay. Yeah, you might, you might be better this

Jacob:

You

Jason Harwood:

and then the season will start and it'll be, we'll be back to vintage Morgan.

Morgan Cannon:

that's true. Especially if we start out hot and they try to talk crazy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. We don't want, we don't want any of that. So yeah, I, I'm with You guys. I, I don't know. I. I guess if you, I would rather have the Eagles win just because I am so tired of the Chiefs. I just like the Patriots were back in the day, like just always being there. I'm just tired of the same old teams getting there. And I'm also tired of the whole like treating Patrick Mahomes differently. And you know, what's a roughing the passer for him is not roughing the passer for everybody else. I find that extremely frustrating.

Morgan Cannon:

Yep. a, it's become a talking point when you don't want it to be, if you're the NFL, in my opinion, and I think you do kind of need to clean that up. Like he needs to be officiated just like everybody else. To your point.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I agree. Let's just talk about less frustrating thing. Let's move on to, well, I guess a different frustrating thing. We lost some coaches this week. Some pretty darn good coaches. talk about Aaron Glenn first, new head coach of the Jets. So first of all, surprise you that he went to the Jets at all. Either one of you.

Jacob:

No, I mean, we talked about that in the preview, kind of thought jets or saints would probably be a good spot for him. I, you know, I thought he would go to the saints, but I guess he liked the opportunity for the jets more.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah. And I think he'll get a, you know, I just hope Woody Johnson, like their ownership group, just let him do his thing, man. I think going to handle it. Well, like they, I saw they were asking him questions about Aaron Rogers and I was dying. He was like, yeah. We haven't gotten that far yet. Like giving them and then like, they would ask it a different way. He's like, I'm not going to get, you're not going to get me. I was like, Oh, here it comes already.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

Him, him dealing with that New York media. But no, I

Jason Harwood:

I don't know if you watch the whole thing, Morgan or not, but he like pre addressed the Aaron Rodgers thing. Like before he went to questions, basically said, I've already contacted him. You know, the dialogue's there and that's where he was going to leave it. And I mean, Aaron Glenn's been in New York. He knows how to deal with New York media. So I don't think that was any surprise to him. The way he answered it and the way that he preempt. Preempted the conversation. I don't think that Aaron, I don't think he wants Aaron Rodgers to be back. That's the way I, that's the way I read it,

Morgan Cannon:

y'all imagine Aaron Glenn talking to Aaron Rogers.

Jacob:

No,

Morgan Cannon:

I

Jacob:

not at all.

Morgan Cannon:

I feel like Aaron Glenn would choke him, you know,

Jason Harwood:

I,

Jacob:

Right. Have a great day.

Morgan Cannon:

Do you

Jason Harwood:

well, I mean, if you're going to come in and be new leadership, I mean, you can't have two. Two of those, you can't have two leaders and and Rogers wants to be one of those. So, you know, I would, unless Aaron Glenn just came in and just put his foot down and just showed, showed the rest of the team who's boss with Aaron Rogers and just benched him or whatever he wanted to do. That'd be a heck of a power move, right? Bring him back and just, you're our number two. We're going to start. I don't care who's, you know, Tyrod Taylor. He's our number one now.

Morgan Cannon:

Listen, I wouldn't blame him. I try Aaron Glenn, man. I'd tell New York's gonna find out quickly. I

Jason Harwood:

Mm hmm.

Morgan Cannon:

he That is one thing I think we're gonna have to watch, though, is just AG dealing with that New York media, you know? After so long. Cause he does get, I don't know, like Jeremy would talk about, like, you know, they're on their P's and Q's when they're up there with Aaron, you might get, you might, he's not going to yell at you. You might get lectured though. You know what I mean? Like,

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, you'll get put in your place. That's the thing. Like Aaron Glenn's confident in his answers and he's not going to back down. So I, I felt for Jeremy and I, I kind of asked him about that at one point. I don't know if that was on, you know, camera or free, we're just. Talking, do you get nervous when you have to ask him a question? Cause I know that's his job. I know that's Jeremy, Jeremy Reisman is who we're talking about. I know that's his job. So maybe he doesn't, but for me, I would, I would be very nervous just cause like you said, he will lecture you. If you, I remember someone asked him about spying sometime and he,

Jacob:

Okay.

Jason Harwood:

a quarterback spy and he just went off on it, you know, you just take it a defender off the field. Do you want to spy? And. It was great. Yep. You know, his tenure with the lions, I would say has been like up and down, you know, like people just really wanted him gone after a couple of years. And then this year, the way that started out and then through the first, you know, set of injuries, he was really having this defense play good. You know, and then we had the meltdown and, you know, the commanders game. So Morgan. Do you, were you happy with his tenure with the lions? Do you think he was a good defensive coordinator?

Morgan Cannon:

Definitely. you saw like you saw there's linear progression, right? For the most part, know, going back to 2021 and parts of 2022 people are like, Oh, my God, you know, like, think about what the talent the field was at that point, you know, on in the Holmes and Campbell era, like a lot of resources were pumped into the offense early, you know, for the most part, and then the defense has started to get a little bit of a backfill here, like the last, you know, year or two, right? Right. So I look at look at the defense in the early parts of this year because that's where I think you need to look at like when you look at Aaron Glenn like resume as a defensive coordinator, right? When he had everything at his disposal, the lines were a top five defense by most metrics, right? yeah, I'm I'm very happy for A. G. excited that he's in the AFC, know, in

Jacob:

Yes,

Morgan Cannon:

in case he does start his own little, you know, empire over there, you know, that'd be nice for him to be in another conference. And he looked good in the jet screen. I saw some clips, you know, he's going to look good over there. I just hope they can get a quarterback because otherwise you're kind of up, you know, what's Creek in this league

Jacob:

you think he would roll a tie rod though.

Morgan Cannon:

at least for a year. And I think he could at least keep the water above level because he's going to get that defense because they have the defense has pieces as y'all both know,

Jacob:

Right. Silence.

Morgan Cannon:

it's got pieces. So you get that defense back to where it needs to be. then if, you know, Tyrod can just steer that offense because the offense has pieces to you got Garrett Wilson, you got Brees Hall, you got some Elijah Vera Tucker pieces along the offensive line. but yeah, you got a Aaron Rogers, you got to cut that cancer out of that thing right now. And go on. I don't know. I'd have to look at the over the cap to see what the dead cap would be, but that he can't stay. I don't care. And I, I almost can guarantee you, I just can't see Aaron Glenn and Aaron Rogers working together. Let's put it that way.

Jacob:

No, do you think that almost would come up right? Like for a G in the interview process before he took it, he's like, Hey, if I come here, this guy's gone one way or another. I'm not, you know, I'm not putting up with this,

Morgan Cannon:

No doubt, Jacob. Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

well, I mean, before, yeah, I think for both accounts, they'd both the ownership group and Aaron Glenn would want to know what did you learn? This came up in the interview process because you don't just like take the job and be like, Oh, now I'm stuck with Aaron Rogers as my quarterback. You don't do that. Cause. Aaron Glenn knows he wants to get to a second contract. Right. And you don't, some of these coaches only get one year, especially in New York. You don't get a long leash in New York. You know, if he doesn't show a turnaround in a couple of years, to be onto someone's new,

Morgan Cannon:

Yep. And both those teams have stunk for so long now. I feel like it's even like a shorter leash because both them and the giants have just been black for a

Jason Harwood:

you know?

Jacob:

right?

Jason Harwood:

All right. Let's move on to the, the, to me, the more interesting of the losses, Ben Johnson goes to Chicago. Jacob, I'll start with you. Are you part of the Twitter? Crowd that's just yelling and call him a traitor or what's your thoughts on it?

Jacob:

No, I'm not going to call him a traitor. I'm not happy with it, but, you know, that's just. It is what it is. I didn't, I know you kind of thought because of how the season ended that he might come back. I really didn't think he was going to be back, but I really, you know, I did not expect it to be so quick and to be the Bears. And I think that's just, you know, you saw the Benedict Johnson tweets and the stuff like that, you know, like the betrayal and everything like that. I mean, he's got to go where he thinks he's going to have success and he, he went to Chicago. What sucks about it is, you know, we like Ben Johnson, he's been a part of this team and everything, I wanted him to go somewhere and succeed and do well, and then he went to the Bears, like, man, now I gotta hope you fall flat on your face, I can't root for you over there, you know, I, you know, that's what sucks, and him you know, walking into the building, and it was like, you know, this is exactly where I wanted to be, and it just was, everything was so quickly after that loss, yeah. I think everyone was still feeling, you know, depressed over what had just happened. And then, you know, for his, the jabs he was taking at the Packers and just everything about like his interview process, I think it just rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah, I agree. You know, you, you see him in the bears gear, but like you said, I, I don't, I think there was a small chance he could have returned, but I also think his agent probably told him like in so many words, like, Hey, it's now or never. And then did the bears, did we confirm that the, it was like, he's getting paid. paid, right? Like they got, I

Jason Harwood:

Well, I haven't heard about his contract deal yet. So

Jacob:

I didn't see anything confirmed.

Morgan Cannon:

Okay, good. Yeah. I heard some whispers, which would be crazy if those numbers are even semi accurate. So I get it setting up his family for wealth in the future generations. But then, yeah, I don't know. I would not want to coach against Dan Campbell two times a year. That's just what I'm

Jason Harwood:

that was surprising. The Chicago ownership group is not, you know, traditionally been known as a good ownership group I found it that he went there. I'm with you Jacob. I felt You know, like I want to root for Ben Johnson. He's done so much for the lions. I want to root for him, but now we can't, can't root for him. He's in our division. Me, when I saw him in his, you mentioned seeing him in the Chicago gear the first time, that's like seeing an ex girlfriend with their new boyfriend, all looking all happy. That's what it felt like to me. You know, just like, Oh, and, and, ugly bears colors. Jacob, did you think that, do you think he knew he was going to the bears before, like the playoff game before the commander's game?

Jacob:

You know, this is interesting, but I, because of the timing and everything, I think he had to know that he was going to Chicago. I don't think, because that's another thing, people are like, oh, he was sabotaging the game? and he was calling it a certain way because he, you know, was really arty for the bears. That's definitely not the case. But I do think that he probably knew he was going to the Bears. The Bears held their last interview, I think, like the day before our game. So, I mean, there's a chance they called him that night or the morning of the game and said, you know, the job is yours. They also may have told him when they interviewed him, like, you know, we want you here if you want this job. And then maybe those other interviews are just kind of a, you know, like a safety net for them in case he didn't take it or whatever. But I think he knew he was going. That's an awful quick time to get over the loss and make a decision when you are in Chicago two days later, you know.

Jason Harwood:

What do you think about that, Morgan? Do you think he knew? Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

part of me thinks so, because it's, it's similar to, it's just one of those situations that shake, that shakes out to Jacob's point. Like when a team hasn't hired anybody, like when the lions hired Patricia, right. And they had to wait all the way through, through the whole, like after the super bowl, right. Yeah. After the super bowl. So like, you know, it's kind of the writings on the wall at that point. And then I. Yeah, I bet you there's, there's some unspoken agreements. Like obviously you can't sign anything at that moment, but I think he probably knew, I still think that he probably wanted a super bowl ring in Detroit before he left for Chicago. Cause that's why he kept coming back. Ultimately didn't feel like a situation was like, right for and his family. And but now, yeah, he got paid, I'm sure. And Chicago is a cool place. But yeah, enjoy being at least second fiddle at the most, man. Cause the North is the lions until it's not like two times in a row. I don't care what anyone else says. That's hopefully three.

Jacob:

Right.

Jason Harwood:

I like, I like our chances at three schedule next year's might have something to say about that, but I'm not gonna go against us. But the, there's some really good coaches in the NFC North. I mean, O'Connell's good. He might win coach of the year. You got, you know, obviously. Dan Campbell. see how Ben Johnson is as a head coach. He's going to call the plays out there in Chicago. It sounds like, so we'll, we'll see how he juggles all that. That seems tough, but he did hire Dennis Allen to be his defensive coordinator, which I think is a good hire, but it's also probably helpful to him to have another head coach, former head coach on your, on your staff, someone that he could go to and, and talk, talk things through. I get the sense that Ben Johnson. like from the interviews I saw afterwards that after last year's interview cycle He went through this like the offseason and through the season looking at things differently Like as a as a head coach like how he would how he would do things and he kind of said as much so You know It sounds like he maybe had made his mind up that no matter what had happened this season that he was going to Going to leave as a, as a head coach which, and you're right, Morgan, you don't get a lot of opportunities. You know, you can't keep flirting with it and then just decide on your own terms when you're going to go. There's only so many of these jobs open.

Morgan Cannon:

No doubt. Nope.

Jason Harwood:

All it takes is golf to get hurt next year, and then Ben Johnson, the offense doesn't look good, and then Ben Johnson maybe doesn't look, look as hot. Look at look at Houston. The offensive coordinator down there just got fired, and he was a big name last, last coaching cycle, and now he's got fired this year.

Morgan Cannon:

Slowik.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah,

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah, it happens quick, man. And a lot of that was just as offensive line getting his butt whooped their butts whooped, you know what I mean? And says it sucks, but that's kind of how the NFL is. Someone's heads got to roll.

Jason Harwood:

Yes.

Morgan Cannon:

unfortunate.

Jacob:

yeah.

Jason Harwood:

The other thing that people are not taking too kindly in Detroit, although I don't have a problem with it myself, is him hiring Ben Johnson hiring JT Barrett as quarterback's coach, you know, poaching him from the Lions and also we're losing Randall L, which I'm sad about personally, because I like Antoine Randall L. He got a, you know, he got a title upgrade as assistant head coach. And then also the wide receivers coach. So do you guys have any thoughts on that? Start with you, Jacob.

Jacob:

I really you know, it sucked to see Randall L go, especially, you know, to the Bears and that whole thing. Again, it's like, man, you know, seeing him work with Amin Ra and Jamo and everything that he's been able to do. I like the, you know, continuity, so it would have been nice to keep Antoine Randall L. JT Barrett, obviously, he was just like I think he was an assistant coach here, so now he's getting to be the quarterback coach in Chicago. That one makes sense for him. Randall L. They make him associate head coach or they, there's some sort of promotion with that too, right?

Jason Harwood:

It's like he's wide receiver coach, but assistant head coach, I think

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

him to come, he had to have an upgrade and like, you have to have an upgrade line. Cause I assume he's under contract with Alliance. He couldn't just leave on a lateral move unless we let him go. So he probably

Jacob:

Okay.

Jason Harwood:

but you have, like, if you get an upgrade in title or something like that, then. Then you're, then can't hold on to you.

Jacob:

Yeah. I mean, good for him. I obviously, I think that's going to be a big loss. I like Randall L, but at the same time they were not able to pull away Hank Frehley, so that's a win.

Jason Harwood:

Yes. That's a big win for you, right, Morgan?

Morgan Cannon:

Man. Keeping Hank is huge. Like I, I love Randall L two, you know, I'm a baby. So Randall L was one of my favorite non lions in the early two thousands. He was just a fun player to be a fan of, and he's gotten a lot like, you know, he's overseen all the growth from Amin Ra. He got. going and rolling this yea So, a lot of de has blossomed seemingly u but this is just where I just like very similar to You know, year after year, I just trust this is Dan is a, staff builder. Like, you know, if you're playing a video game and he has like a badge, that's, that's one of his, that's one of his for sure. You know what I mean? So I

Jason Harwood:

Mm hmm.

Morgan Cannon:

I think they'll, they'll plug in some guys, but yeah, to y'all's point, Hank Fraley is huge. And he got a title upgrade to, to, you know, run game coordinator. So love that

Jason Harwood:

I'm sure he got some money too. I'm sure Sheila opened up the checkbook.

Jacob:

right.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah. Ain't

Jason Harwood:

all right.

Morgan Cannon:

cap for coaches.

Jason Harwood:

Hey, exactly. You know, spend what you can. Hey so before we move on to like some of our new coaching hires, do you guys, I just have a general question. We'll start with you, Morgan. Do you think, know, the NFL should allow to be able to interview these coaches or should they like everyone be on the same playing field that you can't hire someone until the end of the, like after the Superbowl? Do you, what's your feeling on that? Do you think it should just

Jacob:

Thank you.

Jason Harwood:

the same or

Morgan Cannon:

That's tough. Just because like, if you did that right, like the Superbowl is on what day now? February.

Jason Harwood:

ninth

Morgan Cannon:

or

Jason Harwood:

or is it the ninth? I'm pretty sure it's the ninth.

Morgan Cannon:

So February 9th, right? And the new league years, March 13th, that's a quick turnaround. You know what I mean? Like if

Jason Harwood:

Mm hmm.

Morgan Cannon:

teams that fired their coach and you're waiting, waiting, waiting, and then you have like, your new coach has a month to get his staff assembled the best he can. And then you got to approach free agency. So that would be the only pushback from teams that I would. Or like, you know, or like the play, the association in this case that, you know, you know what I mean? Like just the

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

But I hear what people are saying though, because it's a lot like, especially if you're, if you don't have a first round by like the lions had this year and you're, you're prepping for a wild card game you know, doing prepping for a three hour interview with a couple of different teams stuff.

Jason Harwood:

I know

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

think, Jacob?

Jacob:

Yeah. I mean, there's no way that it's not a distraction to be having multiple interviews, which is why, like you said, we had the bi week, so that was good, you know, this year, but I don't think you can change the rule just because there's, you know, January 6th was black Monday. So that's when they let all these coaches go and. I mean, you let the coaches go. Obviously, if you're going to move on, you still got to move on at that point, but then you go basically a full like 30 days longer than 30 days before the Super Bowl. Before you start interviewing, let's say it takes you a week or so before you get your coach. And then, like Morgan said, they've got to get their staff and everything going just condenses everything. So, I mean, it does suck, but I just don't know how you would switch around. Yeah. I know you've got like a Cliff Kingsbury this year said he's not taking any interviews until, you know, the season is over. He's fully focused on the game and, you know, commanders upset us and everything. But now here we are, the only job that's open as the saints. So if he was looking to be a head coach now, you know, now you're fighting for that one spot that you probably don't want anyway.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah.

Jacob:

mean, it does suck, but I just don't know how you would change that.

Jason Harwood:

still getting those checks from Arizona, so he doesn't, he doesn't even care.

Jacob:

Right. He's got a good thing going.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah, exactly. He's like, been there, done that. You got fired. I'm good.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I, I don't believe that it affected the game at all. Like our, like talking about our lions game, with the buy, but you know, it just, I feel bad for those guys having to take five, like three hour interviews inside a week and you got to prepare. And those interviews aren't like. Hi, I'm Aaron Glenn. I, you know, want to bag your groceries. No, it's like, you have to know the team's roster. I mean, there's a lot of prep time that goes into that. But I know that when Dan Campbell interviewed during that week, he was taking time off, he told his coaches to take time off, so I think they were just using that time as a rest. So I don't think it really affected that preparation because Dan wanted to know who we were going to play before they broke everything down.

Morgan Cannon:

Yep. Did it the smart way for sure.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. All right. Let's talk about our new hire. Let's start with the DC, the defensive coordinator, sir. We hired Kelvin Shepard, Morgan, what do you, what do you think about that?

Morgan Cannon:

I love it. And it's something that like I've been hoping for since it really kind of got whispered about for the first time. Like Aaron Glenn gave his like stamp of approval for ship. Not that long ago, but like he was on those Patricia teams, at least the 2018 roster from what I remember. Yeah. So he's not that far removed from playing energetic guys. Like a lot of people are going to remember that scene from hard knocks. Remember, like he basically him the linebacker room, which was bad at the time. Like I'll play Rodrigo. like, what, what were you picked in? He was like six, I'll play him. I'm like, okay, I like this guy,

Jacob:

Yeah. Right.

Morgan Cannon:

so I'm going to bring a lot of the same. Principles and concepts is a G. If I had to guess like there's going to be like, you know, some differences because he's, he's his own individual, but I do think under the Dan Campbell like regime, it's always going to be about what gives us. We're going to assemble as much talent as we can to where we can develop like a specific game plan on a week to week basis, which, in my opinion, that gives you the best chance to win on, you know, every week. So, yeah, I'm excited. What about you, Jacob?

Jacob:

Oh, for sure, kind of like building on what you said, you know, he was a player not that long ago. He's been around, you know, this team for a while. He's been under a G. So, you know, back to that continuity thing. I think he's going to be able to continue the defense and try to, you know, build on and make it better, you know. The defense struggled with the injuries and everything, but we were playing well, you know, early on into the season. And, I mean, I, I think that we're going to get back to that form pretty quickly under Shep. I mean, he's also You know, as a player, he knows how hard it is to adapt to certain changes in the defensive scheme. So I think he's definitely going to do a better job at, hey, you know, I'm going to make this defense my own. Maybe I'm just switching out play calls. I'm only making minor changes here and there. You know, but we're, we're going to get the ball rolling pretty quickly. And, you know, he was at the top of my list for sure. I wanted to just, you know, if AD was going, it just seemed like the make, it made the most sense just to move Shep up.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I'm

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

where maybe we hired him. Justin Rogers had like a interview, he posted in his subscription service and it's a very good read. The thing that I took out from is Calvin Shepard talks about conceptual learning where each position doesn't learn just their job. They learn what the goal of the whole defense is and therefore. You could cut corners in the sense of like, okay, I know I have, you know, the safety is supposed to be here. So I'm going to, you know, I don't have to cover as much area. So if you know what the whole defense is doing, you could do your job better. And then also if there's an injury or something like that, you're better prepared to like move around. And cause you know what, you know, your defensive goals are when you, and I think it's just like everything. When I'm at work and Jacob made me feel this way, if I know what. The whole situation. I know everybody I'm working with. I could work much better because I could trust the guy next to me. I know what they're going to do. And I think that's where Kelvin Shepard is going to shine is that his teaching ability and just as is his ability to communicate is top notch. And I think that that sort of serves so well as a coach.

Morgan Cannon:

Yep, no doubt. I really think like are like the tight end equivalent of like coaching, like a lot of tight ends become good coaches because they have to know everything like the run scheme, you know, passing concepts, route concepts, the whole nine protections. And then conversely linebackers got to know it all to like run fits. checks, you know, coverages who were passing off to depth, all that stuff. So I make sense to me that ship is, and he's so energetic. I, I'm excited, man, because he is always like, if you watch it training camp, he's one of my favorite people to watch because that man has turned 24,

Jacob:

Yeah. Bye. Bye.

Morgan Cannon:

just

Jason Harwood:

that'll be. Yeah, they, you know, you're going to lose a little something from Aaron Glenn not being in the defensive coordinator meetings, but you're going to gain it right back getting Kelvin Shepard in there. You're going to get a good quotes. You're going to, you know, he might be more positive than Aaron Glenn in those interviews. I think he just, but he'll give you, he'll give you some good quotes. I'm sure Jeremy's excited. I think Jeremy has told me that that's his favorite interview. So I'm sure he was excited. by this hire.

Morgan Cannon:

yeah, for sure.

Jason Harwood:

We haven't hired a new OC, but it's looking strongly that we're going to get John Morton. He is the passing game coordinator for the Denver Broncos right now. Formally play our coach with the lions. he did was the OC for the, I think 2017 jets. So he has had an OC job before. Jacob, we'll start with you. Any thoughts on John Morton or I don't know if you've done much rating on him yet, because this news just came about today.

Jacob:

Not quite, but I mean, you know, he is familiar with Dan Campbell. He's familiar with the Lions organization. He has you know, experience as offensive coordinator, you know, back to the continuity thing and just being able to, if everyone has the same goal as the same mindset, We're going to be okay with the offense that we have. We're retaining pretty much all of our important pieces on offense. I just, you know, people made that comparison online with the jets team in 2017 had Josh McCown quarterback. I mean, you know, actually I think Nolan, somebody had posted that it's like most of these guys had career years that season, even though he only lasted one year, but I mean, he's getting the keys to a really nice offense. So I think we're going to be okay. How do you feel Morgan? Silence.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah, I really think Johnson even said as much, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he basically said it doesn't matter who's calling plays for that offense anymore, man. That thing is a doomsday machine. It's got all pros everywhere. It's really just about like someone and I like that Dan Campbell opted to go somebody a he trusts to implement what he wants done offensively because Dan's going to have his fingers like he trust me, this is, this is going to be great in my opinion because it's going to be an image of what Campbell wants for his offense and then you're going to get more of Hank Fraley's input on the ground game, which I love because back to some of those, you know, 2022 and like, you know, 2023 tapes where the lines are just throwing everything and the kitchen sink at people from the run game standpoint, like, all kinds of concepts, counter power zone, you name it. So I'm excited because I really think it's just going to seamlessly, like you said, Jacob, just keep on rolling on. I don't really anticipate any hiccups or anything.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, thing I've learned about John Morton is he was hired multiple times by Sean Payton, John Gruen, Jim Harbaugh, Dan Campbell. If that doesn't speak to your character, I don't know what those are all coaches I respect and coaches in this league. So if they're going to hire this guy multiple times. Then it means they think they add value to the team. I think, you know, Morton was on the team when we had golf, you know, a couple of years ago. So he's familiar with golf. I'm sure that golf has signed off on this because, you know, Dan Campbell said that he would talk to Jerry golf. Cause you know, they talked about it last year with bad jobs that are not last year, but in the past, this was like. A collaboration of the offense, Jared Goff had all his input in there. So they wanted to make sure that this is someone that Jared Goss can be able to work with. I think you're I think you're right on the money, Morgan. Dan Campbell is going to be able to put, I think he's going to have more of a stamp on this offense. And I'm going to suspect that we're going to be running. we run a lot, but I expect maybe not as many trick plays and just. No one, and just winning with what we can next year and what we know works well, and that's Jameer Gibbs and David Montgomery.

Morgan Cannon:

Yep. We're on behind 58

Jacob:

Right, right. I did not want them to try to bring an offensive coordinator you know, That's just going to try to make too many changes. I think, you know, they see the tools, the weapons that we have, and some of these, you know, younger offensive coordinators that just want to try to, you know, I guess be flashier or try to do this or that. It's definitely not what I wanted. And that's not what the team needs. That's not what Dan Campbell wanted either. You know, just want to keep the ball rolling with what we've got. We got a good thing going.

Morgan Cannon:

mean potatoes, man. Just keep that thing. Exactly. Jacob. Yep.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. Just keep moving it forward, because, we, you know, I know golf had last bad game the last time he was out there, but those are few and far between. And you know, We can all say what we want to say about it. We didn't run enough in the second half, but our defense dictated that as much as anything else and us turning the ball over. We were, our hands got forced in that, unfortunately, if we were up in the game that happened on Saturday, Philadelphia and, and the commanders Philadelphia goes up 14 to three early on against the commanders. And we should have been up 14 to three had we not fumbled down in the red zone. And I was, I looked at my boys and I was like, this is the position that we would have been in. And had we got to that position, then you would have saw just us running and just taking time off the clock and controlling all that. And then letting our defense rest. Otherwise we got forced into situations that were not. That we couldn't thrive in. Unfortunately.

Morgan Cannon:

percent, man. I do. I remember where I was. I've said to sweat. I was like, God, I hate when we're in empty. Like on third and short or fourth and short and then sure enough, good

Jason Harwood:

so. We lost Terrell Williams. He would become the defensive coordinator for new England, which makes sense because variables out there now. So I'm kind of disappointed on that, but we did our, I'm actually really excited about our new defensive line coach Casey Rogers. I think we did pretty good and replacing Terrell Williams. So Morgan, I know line play and all that stuff, and you love watching film. Do you have any

Morgan Cannon:

position coach. You hear a lot of good things coming out of Tampa about him. he's seen overseeing a lot of development, right? Like collage, you can't see started playing really well this year. Obviously, I mean, I don't know how much you really have to coach that man. That's a monster. of a human. But yeah, they've consistently been really good on that side of the ball for Tampa Bay and Campbell again. The ties run deep. You know, this is another really good hire in my opinion, because I'm just gonna keep things going for, you know, you want to keep nurturing the young players you have, like similar to the offensive line. You have Roderick Martin, who you really need an uptick for man. That's someone who I'm a little concerned with that will, I'm sure, talk about during the of the offseason. But yeah, there's some guys in there on that defensive line room that certainly needs some nurturing because need those draft picks to hit here soon.

Jason Harwood:

Jacob, have you had a chance to read up on Casey at all?

Jacob:

Yeah, you know obviously losing Terrell Williams sucks, but you know, he was good in the locker room and. This was his only year that he was here and the defensive line definitely improved. You could see that early on for sure So, you know, we kind of saw that coming when he was gonna leave for New England but I liked the the quick action to bring Casey Rogers in here and Back to what you're saying before keep the ball rolling with the defense, right? I mean you you want improvement Yes, but I think that a lot of the defensive lines young They just need more time Like you said project Martin's a big one cuz that's one, you know this year We were hoping he was gonna take that next step and now it's you know Now it's almost now or never, we need to see something from him.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah,

Jacob:

What about you, Jason?

Jason Harwood:

I, so I reached out to Tampa Tones, who is the podcaster we, you know, got with when we played Tampa Bay Bucks. And I asked what his thought on Casey Rodgers were. And first of all, he said he's great against the run, which totally fits him with. The lion's philosophy, we need to be stout against the run. I asked him, I'm like, well, why did Casey Ryder? He's been with top bowls, like pretty much like his whole coach, not as old, but recent coaching careers. I was wondering why he wanted, would want to leave top bowls. And he thinks that maybe there's, he thinks that there's a chance of advancement and maybe he got paid more. So didn't really know, but that was his thought. And I said, what can we expect from Casey? And he said, besides being great at grants around, he goes, you will have, you know, even the bottom part of your roster will see significant upticks and their play. That Casey always had the line ready to play, which is music to my ears. You know, hopefully, you know, know you guys both mentioned Broderick Martin. I think that that's going to be everybody's good and training camp and, you know, everything that's coming up this summer, all eyes are going to be on him. I know when we go to training camp, Jacob, that's who we're going to be watching, right? We're going to be like, did he make some improvements? Because it was disappointing, right? We had all those injuries and he still couldn't make the field you know, so. That, that was, that was scary. So hopefully we, you know, he makes a big third year jump. I think of Derek Barnes, right? The first two years, he kinda, he had the injuries just like Broderick had the injury last or this past season, and then made a big third year jump. So hopefully we can expect of those physical gifts that Broderick has, you know, to be able to have some talent behind them and make a difference. But yeah, we'll see. We, I don't, you know, I don't know if we're going to be done with losing coaches. Aaron Glenn still has to fill out his staff, so we might see some attrition coming, coming there. But see. I, with you, Morgan. Dan Campbell's going to make the hire, right? I mean, everyone wants to work with Dan Campbell, so he's, he's going to have his choice of who he wants to work with. And I, I have faith in that.

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah, he's just that guy at this point, you know,

Jason Harwood:

Exactly. right. Well, before we move on to some, we quickly, we're going to talk a little bit about some upcoming free agents. I don't want to get into it too much just cause season's still on. We'll have plenty of time to talk about it. But we do need to mention that golf was, you know, in the top five of the MPV MVP finalists. I know his last game was not what we wanted. Well deserved. I'm glad that he's getting some recognition being up there.

Morgan Cannon:

yeah,

Jacob:

Absolutely.

Morgan Cannon:

yeah, MVP caliber season. I know he had a couple like the Houston game and then the game here against Washington, but some of that, that's not all on golf either. You know what I mean? Like we. Jeremy did a fantastic breakdown on pride of Detroit. com of like the, the, the initial fumble. Like that Jason was just mentioning earlier, like where the lions had an opportunity to go up 14, three pretty early on in the game. And then the game swung dramatically off that football's a fickle game, man. That's why it's so awesome. And so maddening at the same time. But yeah, you know, Graham Glasgow gets whipped off the line of scrimmage. I'm in Ross slips at the top of his stem. Fumble, right? So

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

not all on golf and I played great and that's why I'm excited about the Morton hire because he was really apparently, you know, a big part of everything going on in 2022 and he was a senior assistant like Campbell said as much and deserve it.

Jason Harwood:

Yep. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of quarterbacks. I have good seasons this year. I mean, some of your top ones like Annalyn and Lamar Jackson and I mean, Baker Mayfield had a pretty good season and Joe Burrow. So, I mean, he, he was up, I mean, but to be in the top five for your MVP finalists, I mean, you couldn't ask for much better. He's making a little less than Jordan Love. It was Jordan Love in that top five, Jacob

Jacob:

Not even close.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, a little dig on him. So I know Morgan, you watch all the press conferences cause you're into this as much, and I know Jacob does too. Did you guys, either one of you guys catch the Brad Holmes press conference? Shortly after the season,

Morgan Cannon:

Yeah,

Jason Harwood:

any thoughts, anything? I mean, it was, there wasn't any breakthroughs in this in this talk, but did you have any thoughts on what Brad had to say or his reactions or anything?

Morgan Cannon:

that was about par for the course. I feel like he was going to, I knew he was going to talk about, they're going to need to add more depth because this, we talked about the beginning of the year. This is a deep roster and then they got, yep. know, you're on your 7th or 8th. It was like interesting to hear him talk about the process of getting the Darius Smith and how that was the most difficult thing he's navigated so far of being a GM like which makes sense when he broke it down. So like matter of factly, but yeah, like no one wants to give up edge rushers. So it's a very small pool of ad rushers you're actually trying to acquire. But yeah, I'm excited that he was very much stay the course. Like we're not about to get crazy because they want to do this. I think in my opinion, that's the best way to. Try and win multiple championships is in the playoffs year after year after year because even like a it could be a year when the lines are, you know, 10 and 7 and make the playoffs and that's the year they win the Super Bowl. You just never know now, because I do think they're going to be one of these teams that's consistently in the mix year because you got Holmes and Dan Campbell. So,

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

that's right.

Jason Harwood:

did you, did you do read or listen to the, or listen to his press conference at all?

Jacob:

I did this in the press conference. I don't remember specific quotes. I know like you know, talking about Terry on Arnold and like how the rookies performed this year and everything, you know, it was kind of a classic. There wasn't anything I won't say that like jumped out at me. It was positive though. I mean, pretty much every time I've heard Brad Holmes talk, I have a hundred percent trust in that guy.

Jason Harwood:

Yes. I'm with you on that. I, I think he's right though. Like you don't need, you don't need to tear everything down apart. Like I know that a lot of fans are just like up in arms about this and it's just cause they're not used to. Being in this spot, right? I mean, every, you know, everyone has to be these crazy reactions. I look at a team like Baltimore, right? If their fans were like that every year, know, tear, tear all this down. They're consistently up there. And you know, not everybody's going to be Kansas city and get to the super bowl every year. It's just, that's just not going to happen. And you want to get to the playoffs as much as you can. And I think the way that Brad Holmes has built this roster that gives us the best chance. To get there every year. didn't have all our defensive injuries, we'd be still playing. We'd be, you know, this would be a different podcast right now. We'd be getting ready for that Superbowl.

Morgan Cannon:

I

Jacob:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

agree. Even if you had a few of them, you don't even give us back 97 give us back Aleem and Carlton.

Jacob:

Yeah. Right. I was going to say Carlton.

Morgan Cannon:

you know

Jason Harwood:

I know.

Morgan Cannon:

give us those three. If you give us 97, then we might have a little conversation here.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

I firmly believe, man, they were top five. They were like top. There were one DV away all the way up through the, like the Hutch thing. And then even for a while they were dominating prior to the last big gas of injuries. That was the Buffalo game. Yeah. Aleem and

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. When a lean went down, I mean, that hurt our run defense significantly. And you saw that, I commander's game. They were gashing us. Up the middle and we couldn't get any pressure. I think if you watch the Philadelphia watch the game, the biggest difference for Jane Daniels is Philadelphia was able to get in Jane Daniels face and make him move around. And we just, without blitzing, we could not do that. And that's, that was a significant difference in that game.

Morgan Cannon:

no doubt. And that's why it hurt having like, we had no disrespect, but they had like Miles Adams and Jonah Williams out there. And it's just, there's a reason like without being disrespectful, those guys weren't on rosters at the beginning of the season and why they were available and so on and so forth. And you get to a certain point. Like, especially I've watched that film back one time. I still haven't written about it because I was like, it was good Lord. But this is just, yeah, guys are getting worked over, man. So it helped for Philadelphia. They had Jalen Carter and all these guys, Nolan Smith on their front. And that, that helps, you know, Darius Slade, Clinton Mitchell, you know, that's nice, that'll work.

Jason Harwood:

yeah. Yeah. It'd be nice. I'm not happy about Gardner Johnson getting, getting, you know, after the shots he took at Lions fans. Now he's, he's back in the Super Bowl, but yeah, he is, yeah. But he was all right, you know, when he was at the lions, I could you know,

Morgan Cannon:

it

Jason Harwood:

support those guys. Yeah, I could stomach those,

Jacob:

think Lions fans were also quick to turn on him too.

Jason Harwood:

yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

sure. Yeah, it was, it went both ways. He's just funny. He like was making fun of Jade and Daniels yesterday. That's what made me think of the, say the turd thing. He was like. Jaden McDaniels. He like added an extra syllable. He's like,

Jacob:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

I thought that was, I thought that was funny. He's just always talking, man. Why didn't

Jacob:

Yeah, right.

Morgan Cannon:

why didn't he change his name to CD deuce? He was, he thought, I thought that was happening.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah,

Jacob:

I thought that was a done deal and then all of a sudden it just never, nothing happened with it.

Morgan Cannon:

Social media went back to CJ Gardner Johnson. Some must have happened at the trademarking or something.

Jacob:

He went to pay for all them jerseys.

Jason Harwood:

yeah, he didn't. Yeah, he didn't want to buy Oslo's jerseys back, although he went to a new team. So, yeah. So, all right, quickly. We're going to just touch real quickly. Just so. This is mostly just information for the listeners in case you're wondering who's going to be up for free agents. So this is our upcoming free agents. I'm, I'm not going to list all of them cause it's quite extensive list, but you know, the big ones that I've noticed are Tim Patrick, Zaitler, Ansariki. Derek Barnes, Carlton Davis, if he's you know, he's going to be out for a new contract. You got, and Dan Skipper John Kaminski is on that list too. So like I said, there's plenty of others. Any of those stick out to you, Morgan, that, Hey, we need to resign this guy.

Morgan Cannon:

There's a couple that I'd like to kick the tires on, but that's, that's going to be some good conversations this offseason, right? Like, I would love to bring Carlton Davis back because in my opinion, there was a good stint of the season there where he was one of the best corners in football, if not the best just from watching on tape. Right. But I wonder how much is it going to like, when is he going to be priced out of coming back to Detroit? Because I do think, you know, there's some other stuff that could happen this offseason where they could hand out some more big contracts. I'd like to, but I don't know, Zeitler, yes, but then could you get a little cheaper, you know, sign a veteran, plug in mahogany, you know, and spend, you know, because there's, there's going to be some other places I'd like them to shore up some depth to, because they can't really, I've kind of come to the conclusion they're not going to get rid of Glasgow because they're, it's, it's like 2 million less to not have Glasgow than to keep him, if that makes sense from the dead money standpoint. So, yeah. there's a couple I would, you know, the first five I would at least at least have a conversation about. I'm done with Malifanwu. I don't know about y'all. Done.

Jason Harwood:

He can't say on the field, but

Jacob:

That's the thing about iffy, right? I actually like if he has a player, but I mean, you know, if you're never available, then what do you, it's also one of those things. I mean, how much of a contract is he really going to be commanding same as Dan skipper? Like, you know, you like Dan skipper in the locker, but everything like that, obviously he's not like a top player, but I mean, he's out there and he, he's going to be cheap, right? There's not going to be any kind of, you know, we're not battling a bunch of teams for his services.

Morgan Cannon:

Skipper will get the veteran minimum. Malifanwu, someone could pay him just because I do, like you Jacob, I like, he has a great skill set, unique. He can do a lot of things on the back end near the line of scrimmage, but watched that man run sprints for like 20 minutes. In my seat when they, they were playing the commanders and then, you know, you had Marie Norris out there and Jean Oliver, and I was like, what do we do? If he come on, man, could you, could you see him running on the sideline? Jacob or Jason?

Jason Harwood:

I didn't see was he, I,

Morgan Cannon:

there next to him. I'm like, dude,

Jason Harwood:

yeah,

Morgan Cannon:

game.

Jason Harwood:

yeah, what do you, what's your thoughts on Zeitler, Jacob? I'm curious what you think about

Jacob:

Well, I mean, it's funny because Morgan said about like the, you know, that's what we did last year with Jonah, right? We were like, well, we don't want to pay Jonah that much. So let's look for a veteran and then here comes Zeitler, you know, much more affordable on a one year deal. You know, do we bring him back on a one year deal? Is he gonna be asking for more money? I'm not sure. It's kind of one of those things, almost all these guys that we have, it's like if the price is right, you know, I won't say all of them, but quite a few of the price is right. I would be more than willing to have them back for sure.

Jason Harwood:

I like Barnes. I'm hoping Barnes comes back. Especially now with Shep being defensive coordinator. I'm Barnes may see that, but, you know, also I could see, you know, if I don't know if they need any help over in the jets, you might, you might see Derek jump ship over to Aaron Glenn over there.

Jacob:

Yeah,

Jason Harwood:

for me. The Zeitler thing is interesting. I, if we could get him to a similar cost of what we got him this year, I'd almost be apt to bring him back. And then you put mahogany, you let him in Glasgow, fight it out. And if, I mean, if Glasgow is your top backup for the guard that's I'm, I'm, I'm okay with that. That that's actually a pretty good deal.

Jacob:

right. You can move around.

Jason Harwood:

exactly. He's also your backup center. So, I mean, that gives you a little more flexibility. I mean, we're putting a lot on mahogany shoulders. He's played, you know, a couple of games, but the growth he made in the short term this season, and Morgan, if you're saying you're all in, I know you watch, watch plenty of films. So I, I, I'm going to trust you on this. You know, he's got to get into their off season of growth and. And he's going to have a full off season last year. You know, he didn't, I mean, he missed the beginning part of the season and, you know, mini camp. he would have been able to play that, he might've might, he might've passed Glasgow, the way Glasgow was playing at the end of the year. He might have done that.

Morgan Cannon:

No doubt. I think like you can plug him in a left guard. If you don't bring Sightler back, put him in at right guard and just mash people to death with Pena because he's nasty. I like watching his tape is good, man. He, the past sets will get cleaned up, but they're already pretty good to be honest with you at the guard. And then he just. He looks for work. He does it all. I'm all in on mahogany. I'm usually not very hyperbolic. I try to like, I'm always like, well, let's see, you know, get a bigger sample size. saw his tape at Boston college and I was like, okay. And then he, the against Washington even I was like, yeah, he's he's ready to go. That's a good one.

Jacob:

Right,

Jason Harwood:

I could see another situation where you move Graham back to side, put him between Pinay and Frank and then Mahogany on the left and. I mean, everybody looks better when you're between Frank and Panay, right? So, you know, you could see us, I could see a situation where if they don't bring Zyler back, maybe they move Graham over back over to the right side. because two years ago, he looked pretty good in that spot, and maybe that's because he was between Frank and and then, you know, like I said, mahogany over there next to Taylor would be all right. So, it'll be interesting. I think Anzorica is another one that, especially depending on what happens with McNeil, like, and how much, I think you're right, Jacob, it's how much is Anzorica

Jacob:

right.

Jason Harwood:

But, you know, I thought that's where he got played pretty well this year, considering that it's almost as rookie season, right? He missed the first, you know, years he played sporadically, but he was mostly injured. So this is his first full season of playing. So he might see a, like the second year jump next year, you know? And, and I guess I was just happy that he was able to play it the whole year and much stay uninjured.

Morgan Cannon:

I like Levi. I think be nice to bring him back, but he's one, I'm almost like, I think he's going to go because I think someone will pay him. You know, and the

Jacob:

Right.

Morgan Cannon:

lions, you know, you have reader under contract, you, you pay the liam, you're going to pay Hutch, in my opinion, this off season. I think you, maybe that's something they invest in like a double dip. I would like them, you know, like they did with a corner last year. would love if they like double dipped at like three technique this year. You know what I mean? Like just a couple more bodies or like double dipped at edge or some guys who have some positional versatility, because I just think you need to add bodies to that room you got

Jason Harwood:

Yep.

Morgan Cannon:

there, obviously a superstar, a star. know, and some nice pieces add some more,

Jacob:

And yeah, it still wasn't enough, right? Couldn't overcome all the injuries and everything, like, you know, we need more depth, right?

Morgan Cannon:

star Wars meme more when he's

Jacob:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

I. I'm hoping that we can't have another, like 20 people on injured reserve next year. I mean, I'm, you know,

Jacob:

I mean, nobody can really, you know, the fact that we got as far as we did and didn't as well and had as great of a season with that is, you know, we'll talk about that forever.

Morgan Cannon:

And I do think the defense was broken. I think the only thing that gave us a little bit of a glimmer of a hope was Sam Darnold being a pumpkin. It fooled me a little bit. It fooled me. I was like, well, maybe

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. Well, I mean, but our offense always gave us a chance and it just didn't when we turned over the ball five times, we couldn't, even if we had to just turned it over two times in that commander's game, we definitely had a shot, you know,

Morgan Cannon:

even

Jason Harwood:

Jacob. we're two scores, you know,

Morgan Cannon:

take away the pick six or the first fumble. I think that game is different. But it's

Jacob:

Right. Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

fumble. It's the first fumble. They take that away. We play different on offense. Jared Goff doesn't get as punchy with the ball and it doesn't make those decisions that he made poor decisions. So before we head out here, there's the you already mentioned it. Hutch is up for an extension this year. We also have Kirby's up for an extension. Jamo could get an extension or we're going to have to, his fifth year option would be up. Josh Pascal and Malcolm Rodriguez. Do you think? Out of those five, do you think I have, I'm going with Hutch is going to get the extension. Do you think Kirby's going to get one too?

Morgan Cannon:

Oh yeah. I think they're gonna pay Kirby. Then you have to turn around and pay BB. You're just going to have to, that's where Disney and those guys come into play. Like make it work. Stagger the cat pits. You're going to do what you got to do. Be cheap at corner, which is something they could do. Which is kind of my point with Carlton earlier. Like you're gonna have to get cheap somewhere. But yeah, Hutch is going to get a mega ultra super duper deal. Like Panay and Ra got I think Kirby gets paid for sure. Jamo, I think they pick up the option and they're like, you need to do it one more year before we about that. Bubba, you know,

Jason Harwood:

Yep, I'm, I'm with you there and I think they're going to do what Hutch, what they did with panacea. You know, they'll pick up the fifth year option and then tack it on and then they could spread that cap hit or, you know, they can, like you said, they could play with those cap numbers. You know, offset it with whoever else contracts hitting big one year that they're going to have to play those numbers, but that gives an advantage of doing it this year. I just, you know, it takes two to tango Hutch. Maybe say, Hmm, I might wait another year and get you know, get, plus he come off uninjured. So who knows? I mean, he, if you'd have been defensive player this year, he would have gotten majorly paid.

Morgan Cannon:

Do it

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

I would

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

overpay a little bit now and feel feel better about yourself after he breaks off a DPOY, know, award next year. You know what I mean?

Jason Harwood:

Exactly. Yep. So it'll be interesting. We'll have plenty of time to talk about free agents after the season. You know, and just the preview of something that we got coming up February 17th is a Monday on Tuesday. We're going to we're going to invite Morgan on Migo's going to come on. We're going to do what we call a fancy play draft. We're going to pick our. We're each, we're going to go round robin, kind of like a fancy draft. Each of us got to be able to pick a play and we're going to build our best five plays. And then you listeners, we're going to ask you to vote on who do you think come up with the best set of plays. So just some fun to do in the off season and we'll see how it goes. I have full faith that I'm going to be better than Jacob. I don't know about

Jacob:

you're last for sure.

Jason Harwood:

No

Jacob:

By a mile.

Jason Harwood:

by a mile. No, no, not going to happen.

Jacob:

20, so we don't have to worry about it anyway.

Jason Harwood:

right. It's all Jared Goff Jared Goff rushes. So I'll

Jacob:

Yeah, right.

Morgan Cannon:

The vanilla big highlights.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, exactly. Before we head out of here, I just, the day after the season ended with Washington or like when the podcast came out, I got some really nice notes. One was from you, Morgan. That's, that was really nice. That made me feel good that like it was cathartic to hear this episode. So I'm sure you were not alone in that. It was cathartic for Jacob and I to talk about it that day, like after the day, after the Washington thing, we, you know, we are able to, I mean, it wasn't something I really generally look forward to talking about, but I did feel better afterwards. So thank you for getting. For reaching out to me more, cause that makes me feel good. Like, Hey, we're actually doing some good here. And I had Cody reached out to us, our longtime listener. And you know, he's had some really nice things to say, and I've heard from a couple more people. So I just want to say, anybody that reached out to us, thank you for doing that. It makes us feel good that, you know, helping in some way. I, cause, I like to build, to build a community and this is a safe space to government. We can, you know, talk about the lines and, you know, be truthful, but also we don't have to be negative. We can be hopeful and, and, and see you know, see where this thing's going. It was a successful season. I know we wanted to get further, but with all the injuries, I mean, we could be in San Francisco and they didn't even make the playoffs, right? We were number one seed. So we have things to be proud of. Winning 15 games is a credible feat for the Lions. So Morgan, you working on anything with Miko this week or next couple of weeks?

Morgan Cannon:

Just bottling up the you know, the coaching search and then we have our free agency preview series starting on pride of Detroit dot com, which is always a good one. You know, the staff will pick different ones to write about. So look at that. And yeah, before we know it, it'll be free agency, new league year and then rolling right into the draft. So I'm

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

wait, man. To

Jacob:

For sure.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. right, Jacob. Anything, any parting shots before we take off here?

Jacob:

No, man, I'm good. Just you know, like we said before, the sky is not falling. Don't call for golf's head and everything and act like, you know. You gotta act like we've been here before, right? We made it to the NFC Championship game last year. It's not the way we want it to end, but for 31 teams, they're gonna have this feeling, right? So,

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Jacob:

be okay.

Morgan Cannon:

y'all's point, look

Jacob:

The window is not closed,

Morgan Cannon:

Yep, exactly. Jacob. Look at teams like

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

goes on and on. Go look at their, you know, the playoff resumes and it's a lot of sour grapes, man. So buckle up, go read that article that I wrote. It's gonna

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Morgan Cannon:

Maybe they'll win a couple of Super Bowls and that'll make it worth it.

Jacob:

right?

Jason Harwood:

Exactly. I read that article again. I just like listening to our podcast was cathartic. Reading that article for me was just another, you know, just a level headed look at the positives of the season and common sense approach to like what you said, Jacob, 31 other teams, 31 teams are disappointed every year. You know, we, you got to just look at it. And we have a lot, we have a lot to be looking. Forward to, you know, we still have Dan Campbell. Anytime we have Dan Campbell, Brad Holmes at the top of this thing, I'm happy. And Sheila's doing her thing too. She's, got it. And we're, you know, we didn't lose Chris Spielman to the Jets. So he's, he's back to,

Morgan Cannon:

we didn't, right? He's Yeah, he's still

Jason Harwood:

yeah, he's saying, you know, I wonder if they just called him in to learn a little bit more about Aaron Glenn, you know,

Morgan Cannon:

say listen. Yeah,

Jason Harwood:

You know, Rick, Rick Spielman was part of that committee, brought Chris in, like, you know, tell us, tell us a little bit about Aaron that, you know, stuff we don't know. Cause you know, if you didn't know, his brother was part of the search committee for GM and coach. So Chris Spielman's brother was. All right, well, boys, this has been a good podcast. I'm happy to have you guys aboard. We got Superbowl next week. Jacob, you and I will talk Superbowl, predicts a little bit on Superbowl, you think?

Jacob:

I guess.

Jason Harwood:

I

Jacob:

One of these teams has to win, right? So,

Jason Harwood:

exactly. Well, if I can't, if I can't enjoy the Super Bowl, at least I could enjoy making fun of your picks or something like that. Jacob?

Jacob:

who lost this year in grip picks?

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. I don't know. I, I

Jacob:

Yeah, well, okay. Running back.

Jason Harwood:

Jacob, are you bringing up last

Jacob:

Eh, season's not over yet.

Jason Harwood:

All right. All right. For Morgan, Jacob, I'm Jason. Thanks for joining us and we'll, we'll talk to you soon. Go Lions.

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Jacob Litton

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Jason Harwood

Co-host