Talking Grit: A Detroit Lions Podcast

E61: Coaching Updates and Run Hutch Run

• Jason Harwood / Jacob Litton • Season 1 • Episode 61

Share episode

Send us a text

Join Jason Harwood and Jacob Litton as they discuss the new coaching staff, Aiden Hutchinson, and Jamo.  What will they be looking for at the combine.  

Want to support us?

Item Shop

Visit us on Facebook

Visit us on X: @talkinggritpod
Jason - @Jason_TGPod
Jacob - @jmallitton

YouTube

Talking Grit Website

Talking Grit Subreddit

Email Us: talkinggritpodcast@yahoo.com

Jason Harwood:

Welcome back to Talking Grit. I'm Jason Harwood and with me is Jacob Litton. I want to apologize for our scheduled podcasts on Monday. Sicknesses and schedules definitely got in the way. We have to postpone our planned podcast, was the Fancy Play Draft. And we're going to be recording that, Monday night. So it'll be out Tuesday morning.

Jacob:

Let's say next week,

Jason Harwood:

huh?

Jacob:

you're putting pressure on us. You're putting pressure on us by telling them the day

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I know. Hopefully everything works out with all four of us. Getting four people together at once is Sometimes difficult during this time of year. Miko and Morgan will both be joining us. It's enough about next week's show. Let's talk about this week's show. first I'll start off with Jacob, how you been?

Jacob:

I'm all right, man. It's the downtime of the season though. It's far enough away, the scouting combines coming up. We got that to look forward to, but it's far enough away from the draft and free agency, starting everything. It's just the downtime.

Jason Harwood:

I don't know. It hasn't helped that, the both basketball and hockey have been on their break, at least, hockey's had this four nations tournament, which has been pretty fun to watch, but I'm ready to get back to Detroit sports, Pistons game tomorrow night. So that'll be fun. I

Jacob:

Absolutely good. Detroit sports too. I mean, they

Jason Harwood:

know

Jacob:

are playing well.

Jason Harwood:

it wasn't too long ago, Jacob, that none of our teams were worth a darn. And now there's a possibility that all four of them could make the playoffs.

Jacob:

Yeah. I don't know what year it was, but it was, it could have been when we were oh, and 16, but there was one year where they like combined all the records or all the winning percentages from all the cities that have the four major teams and we were the worst by a long shot,

Jason Harwood:

Yeah,

Jacob:

just rubbing it in.

Jason Harwood:

It just seemed like for a while, then even Michigan football was not doing good. And it was just a downtime and sports. And for me as a huge sports fan, It was tough to stomach and now we've gone on a streak of beating Ohio state over and over again and right away starting to play well, especially since the coaching change and Pistons have been surprisingly well. And then it's not to mention the Tigers, like 0. 1 percent playoff chance run that they had at the end of the year. That was crazy exciting. And of course the Lions that we follow so much that, been playing really well for the better part of two and a half years.

Jacob:

I wonder like how many of the listeners are just, Detroit sports fans or how many because, we had a couple of people on there they liked the lions, but they may not like the tigers or they don't roll with the pistons or, Dusty from Green Bay, he's a Packers fan, but he actually followed the Tigers. So

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. I just can't, I have a hard time relating to that. I just, I, you and I are both just Michigan Detroit fans fans that cherry pick or, I don't want to say cherry pick, but just have fans

Jacob:

cherry pickles are fighting words.

Jason Harwood:

they are, I guess the cherry picking like, Oh Oh, I'm, like a lot of my son's age. Yeah. Friends are all like 49ers and chiefs fans. I think that maybe like some of those people, that's when they started loving the sport, that was a good team. So they followed them. I guess that's probably how that happened. Or maybe it's a parent likes one or the other, but for me, I just grew up. My parents just love Detroit teams. And that wasn't great to me and, bad you can't get your kids to follow suit, man.

Jacob:

I know my parents were not into sports. They didn't watch sports. I had to do this on my own. I had to develop this heartbreak on my own. Nobody led me to this.

Jason Harwood:

so how did you get into sports? If your parents weren't into it, was it friends or other family members or?

Jacob:

Honestly, like this, the first, probably they started me in T box. It was something to do. And I was just always, I love sports. I was always really good at sports and it was just like, so those things, this is what I relate to the most. So now life revolves around sports and I'm okay with that.

Jason Harwood:

No, it's like the first reality TV, really, when you think about it, like you got this, you got all these storylines and you're playing, it's real stuff and real people. People in real players and just it's fun. I can't imagine my life without sports. And for a while, I didn't think that my boys were going to be into sports, but they totally are. And I'm living my dream as a sports dad.

Jacob:

It's a good feeling to have them. Be into sports, and JJ likes to see news stories and sports things and he'll share updates and stuff. Just unfortunately for me, I have to deal with JJ liking the Dolphins and the Heat and teams that are not mine. At least everybody likes all the same teams in your house,

Jason Harwood:

That's right. I come home with, dad, did you know this dad, did you know that? And then after I get through the news of the day or whatever they've learned since, they've gotten home from school, then I learned about new Madden ratings and stuff that is not majorly important in my life, but it's fun nonetheless to just talk any sort of sports with my kids. So I I don't take that for granted at all.

Jacob:

for sure.

Jason Harwood:

All right, let's get on talking about the Lions this week. The Lions announced their full coaching staff. You and I are not going to go over this extensive list. We're going to just kind of hit the highlights, but before we get all started in that Dan Miller interviewed the new OC and the new DC. You and I both watch those interviews. I'm going to start with you. We'll start with John Morton. you have any impressions from the interview or what caught your eye or your ear from that interview with Dan Miller?

Jacob:

I mean, obviously with any coach, you expect them to, talk about the team and talk about what they hope to bring to the team and everything. But in this case, what I caught from that was just, he's from Michigan, right? His family's from Michigan. He grew up rooting for the lions. His family's all still here. He was here just a few short years ago, It really means more to him. It's really in there. He knows what it's about. You don't have to, some of these guys, you have to learn about what Detroit's about. You have to learn about what things are like here, what the people are like here. And, it was cool hearing him talk about that. He's from here and he's all in. And I like that.

Jason Harwood:

it. I looked it up, he went to Western Michigan University. I actually went to Western Michigan University for a while. And yeah, just that stuck out to me too. Like the Michigan connection he knows what it would mean to the city, just like Aiden Hutchinson knows that. Like just being from this area, having to live through all that. He's gonna, And hopefully he's going to provide a, the things that I took from it, other than the Michigan connection was, that he's, it starts with JG. It starts with Jared Goff. He said, and he's already got a prior relationship with Jared Goff. The cool thing about this is Morton's already developed. Relationship with these players. I mean, he has a new OC coming in. He's been a part of this, the, he was right from the get going, Ben Johnson to God OC. He saw it being built from the ground up. He made, not in here. He said, it's not broken. I'm not in here to fix anything. I'm in here to enhance things, to make it better. And he can make it better. I. I don't, I'm not saying that Ben Johnson was a bad coach or anything like that. Loved him here, but I think he could take it a step further or they could do different things. We, if anyone had a beat on what Ben Johnson was going to do, that's going to change a little bit. Cause now play calling is going to change a little bit with Morton back there. And he did confirm John Morton is calling the plays. Cause there was talk about, whether Dan Campbell was going to call the plays, Morton confirmed that he is calling the place.

Jacob:

Yeah, he seemed excited about that, putting that out there too. He is going to be the one calling the plays. I think he actually reflected on the last time that he did that for the Jets and how different the situation is here. With us being established like that already, all the pieces are already in place, I mean. Really, when you think about that's just the best situation for a coach to come into. You don't really have to, changes are not 100 percent necessary. You don't have drastic things that you need to fix right now before you can get on the field.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah the thing is, it's just the pressure, right? He's got to live up to this juggernaut of an offense and, there probably will be a little bit of growing pains, I feel, but hopefully, they can work a lot of that kink out in the off season, as opposed to in the season. You mentioned, I want to go back to something you just mentioned about his, he was an OC. So if you look back as a record as an OC, maybe it's not impressive, but when I mentioned who his quarterback was, it was Josh McCown. His running backs were a guy that you've probably never heard of, Billy O'Power. His two main

Jacob:

Powell,

Jason Harwood:

were Powell. Is it Powell? Okay.

Jacob:

Belal Powell.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. And Jermaine curse.

Jacob:

I've never heard of Belal Powell because he doesn't exist.

Jason Harwood:

He doesn't exist here.

Jacob:

Jason's just making up names.

Jason Harwood:

I know. I just wanted the last name to be power. That would be awesome. I Last.

Jacob:

but you know, that is cool.

Jason Harwood:

The, just to go to a huge tangent here, there was a Simpson's episode where Homer changes things to max power and that'd be a great name to have. But anyways the two wide receivers were Jermaine curse and Robbie chosen. So not a murderer's row of offensive talent there. He's going to have much better talent coming here to Detroit.

Jacob:

Definitely. I mean, night and day when you look at those situations.

Jason Harwood:

yes, exactly. Now, of my opinion, this is the more interesting interview of the two. I think Kelvin Shepard is an amazing talker. I want to run through a wall for him already. He's just that kind of person. So what hit you about the Kelvin Shepard interview, our new defensive coordinator interview with Dan Miller?

Jacob:

The first was just like the loyalty that he's already showing to the lions and Dan Campbell and just, him talking about, he was open about having other opportunities elsewhere and him wanting to stay here, him wanting to ride this one out and, he's earned it, right? He's earned this shot. It's awesome that he was able to stay here and get the chance to be here. I think he made a joke like we'll just be co head coaches with Dan Campbell once that time comes. No, yeah, but that's just what I got out of it is the loyalty and everything. We already know what Shep's about, but what were your first thoughts?

Jason Harwood:

Yeah I'm just like mesmerized when he talks, I just listen to it. Is so inspiring a player, he has the Detroit roots, just Morton did, he did, chefs been here as a player. He knows what this town's about. He's been here for the last few years coaching. He definitely knows he's not going to come in here and. Just change everything. He's just going to, again, make it grow and make it his own. I, he mentioned Terry and Arnold's name twice in that interview that you caught. He mentioned it early on. And then when they, Dan Miller asked him about players, that they could make a big jump. Terry and Arnold was the first name out of his mouth. So I'm excited by that. I think he sees a potential there. He also mentioned Brian branch as having a potential to grow. What did you think about that? That, that stuck out to me.

Jacob:

I mean, if the ceiling gets any higher, that already is one of the best graphics we've gotten for him.

Jason Harwood:

Yes, what's funny is that he mentioned, I don't know if you caught it, but he mentioned BB's growth from the neck up, meaning, his football knowledge. He has tons of instinct. He's obviously a great athlete, but if, Calvin Shepard think that there's more room to grow and how we can, change the game. I, love to see it. If he makes another big jump, that'd be great.

Jacob:

No, absolutely.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. And then you mentioned the loyalty. He mentioned AG. And how AG like basically prepared him for this job that AG pushed him out and he would do more talks with the team and stuff that he said other defensive coordinators, they want all their time with the players and the position coaches are kind of sidelined. didn't do that. He pushed those guys out there. And I think that's going to make Calvin Shepard more prepared for this job.

Jacob:

Yes. I mean, shouts out to AG for that too. He seemed like he just did everything the right way.

Jason Harwood:

What I'm going to quiz you. What would he, what did Calvin Shepard say was non negotiable in his defense? Do you remember what the term was that he used?

Jacob:

I do not remember that.

Jason Harwood:

Relentless effort, which I loved. I loved hearing that. And he said, that's non negotiable. And.

Jacob:

for it.

Jason Harwood:

I'm all for that. And I also, the other thing that I love, he talked about the toughness in the trenches and he said, he likes, he tells the team, you have to earn the right. To rush the passer. what he means by that is that you have to stop him on first and second down so that you could get them in that passing situation so that you could just pin your ears back and go to, go after the quarterback. liked that. I mean, it's not much different with AGA or what Dan Cabell has preached before, stop the run. then, put them in an obvious passing situation, and then, you have, you better your chance if you eliminate 50 percent of the plays that they can call.

Jacob:

That's the name of the game, right?

Jason Harwood:

So I'm excited. I'm really glad that they hired Shep for this position. We'll see how it all turns out. I'm sure there'll be some growing pains with both of them, but I'm happy to have Shep on, for our defensive coordinator.

Jacob:

Yeah, that's to be expected, obviously. The growing pains. Not everything's gonna click right away. Not everything's gonna work right away. We still have a really good roster to build around and to do these things with, but people have to be patient, too. Give up, a bunch of yards or some big plays or something like that. Let's not call for Shep's Head or, it's just inevitable that people are gonna do that.

Jason Harwood:

And then also sometimes it's just a pl a player missing a play. It's not necessarily the defensive coordinator. So it for us is, you, we have to watch, you have to watch a lot of tape and you have to, s see a lot to make the right call on that. And then just listen to the, what the coaches say afterwards.'cause a lot of times it is on a player being outta position I'm, I don't know about you, Jacob, but I'm watching the four nations thing right now and

Jacob:

Yeah, I got it.

Jason Harwood:

goal. We're up

Jacob:

I

Jason Harwood:

good update. Anyways there's been along with those two big changes, it was seeing the DC, there was some other changes throughout the lineup. We're not going to go through everything. Scotty Montgomery now is going to be the wide receivers coach. Which I kind of curious how that's going to be with JMO because Scotty Montgomery seems to be, a down to business guy. that would be, just another, mentor voice for JMO. So I'm happy about that. But the guy that I think both you and I want to talk about is Tashard Choice, the running, the new running backs coach. What did you want to talk about with him?

Jacob:

mean, just, he has NFL experience, obviously. So this is another former player that we're bringing in here, but he also, has a already established relationship with Jameer Gibbs. He was coaching at Georgia tech when Jameer Gibbs was in there, he also coached at Texas. So he saw Bijan Robinson so he's had some good running backs underneath him already. And I just, I think we both feel the same way about having the former players in here. That are able to coach as well. I think that's just huge. So I really like that move there.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I like that move, too. He's also, to Shard Choice, is like best friends with Calvin Shepard. And Calvin Shepard said in his interview that, he told to Shard Choice, Just wait till you get in here. This is unlike you'd have ever seen just that collaborative effort. I think he's talking about with the lions organization. So it sounds like we got some good talent there. And I like, like you mentioned the experience with Jamir Gibbs. I'm sure they picked Jamir Gibbs brain about it. I think. Did on the Amun Ra podcast or was it a, I don't know if it was Amun Ra or it was another podcast Gibbs talked about that Tushar Choice was like a reason why he went to Georgia Tech just to work under him.

Jacob:

That could have been on there, the St. Brown podcast. I did not hear that though.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah I don't know exactly what podcast, but I know that he had talked about, um. Working together. So

Jacob:

I mean, if he's able to get the best out of Gibbs and take him to another level too, I mean, my God,

Jason Harwood:

I know. Yeah. And if he gets, if Gibbs goes to another level, then you're,

Jacob:

that's almost unfair.

Jason Harwood:

it is, yeah, for other teams, but totally

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

Fraley, they added run Gabe coordinator to his title. That was probably mostly to keep him here. He was interviewing out outside. Just quickly, Bruce Gretkowski, former Toledo quarterback is now offensive assistant. lives pretty close to us. So I hope I can run into him at some point. That would be super cool.

Jacob:

Jason's just going to wait outside his house.

Jason Harwood:

Exactly.

Jacob:

Boos!

Jason Harwood:

did Bruce. Yeah. The other guy though, the other guy that we've talked about previously is Casey Rogers. And the more I read about this guy, I am really excited to have him as our defensive line coach. Just. We've had a lot of defensive line coaches in here. Aline McNeil's had a different one pretty much every year. But last year's was really good. And Casey Rogers seems to be another, another guy that we've got this step in there. And is funny. Casey Rogers was defensive coordinator when John Morton was offensive coordinator with the Jets. So

Jacob:

That's interesting. So there's some familiarity there too.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah,

Jacob:

Now, is Casey also a run game coordinator? Is that like a co thing or? Okay.

Jason Harwood:

So both Hank Fraley and Casey Rogers have run game coordinators. Now, I don't know, if one is, I mean, I assume Casey's is more on the defensive side, whereas Hank's on the offensive side. But so I don't know how they're, going to be worked out. Then maybe someone will ask that question. I think at the combine coming up, the coordinators may Maybe there. So they might be able to get, be writers might be able to get some, information from them on that.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

Not much that's changed on here. I will say that, to Shay Townsend, our passing passing coordinator, defensive backs coach, he interviewed outside for some other coordinator positions, but end up staying back so that, that's good that we kept him. We had, our defensive back play was much better last year. I think that was a lot to do with better talent back there. Obviously we kept kept him. We keep changing our defensive backs coach. It seems like we change in that every year too. So

Jacob:

A

Jason Harwood:

get some

Jacob:

little bit of continuity. Real quick. Just about back to Bruce Kowalski because he also has NFL experience. He's also a former player. They got, Toias Asopo, was an offensive assistant too, and he is another former quarterback. So we're definitely sticking with the whole hiring former players thing a lot too.

Jason Harwood:

Yep. Yeah,

Jacob:

we've had a lot of success with.

Jason Harwood:

we have, and I don't think the lions just hire Oh, you're a former player. You can come coach with us.

Jacob:

No.

Jason Harwood:

former players that. Our good coaches, and I think the former players have just I think the players just have an easier time following them or they're the coaches can relate with the players because they've been in that spot before

Jacob:

Absolutely. You can't have any player, just cause you're a good player, just cause you play doesn't make you a good coach. But you know there are plenty of good coaches who have that experience, and I think that helps.

Jason Harwood:

for sure. Yeah. Let's not let's not recreate the wheel here. We've got a good thing going. Just keep going with it. All right. Anything on the outside of the coaches that you wanted to talk about?

Jacob:

No I really David Shaw, also, passing in coordinator. He's the one that was from Stanford for a while. Just more knowledge, more coach. I mean, we got a pretty solid coaching staff. Obviously, we have a lot of big names that we had to replace, but I'm okay with it. I feel really good about it going into it.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I mean, I don't like losing what we had. I really liked A. G., obviously liked Ben Johnson, but also I think that, I feel like these guys are prepared to take over these roles that they've inherited. And like you said before, they're getting talented rosters. They're not, it's not like they're new coaches coming in and they got to, fix everything and they just need to keep the machine rolling.

Jacob:

Yeah, there's nothing to, you don't have to figure out how it works. We know how it works. Play with it, do what you want with it.

Jason Harwood:

And we still have Dan Campbell that, the ring leader and he will get everybody in line and he'll have a good plan and we'll keep it going. All right. Next thing I want to talk about real quickly, FL increased the seller cap. They announced that this week, it's going up by. At least 22 million. There's still some budget numbers to figure out. So it could go up like another 4 million beyond that, but 22 million is, would already be a record. So it's going to go up like a one year record last year. It's going to break last year's record. as of right now, different sites are projecting different amount of calf space for the lions. I usually look at spot track and they. Calculate the lines of 48 and a half million and calf space next year, which is a pretty good spot. It's in the upper half of the league, like around 11, a lot of things could change between now and then we could cut some players, whatever contracts, reduce some contracts. to free up money. But it's nice to be, instead of in the saints or the Browns where they're like 30

Jacob:

Exactly.

Jason Harwood:

and they got to shed everything or redo contracts to get under that we're going to be a pretty good job for flexibility

Jacob:

This is where you want to be.

Jason Harwood:

You have to be like under the cap when the league or search, which is March 12th, I believe. You got to have all that stuff done and, in the next few weeks here, whereas the lions have that, we're already under the cap. So we don't, you don't have that timeline.

Jacob:

It really makes you wonder, though, how teams get so far behind like that, and what, how many bad moves you have to make and set yourself up for that disaster.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah I mean, we lived it. I mean, that whole Nick, I mean, the Dominican Sioux thing where we just kept redoing their contracts and we do redoing him and Stafford at the same time. And it basically, price

Jacob:

And who was the GM then?

Jason Harwood:

Was that Mayhew at that time

Jacob:

I think so, right?

Jason Harwood:

yeah, yes. And, then the Amagans signed for a ridiculous contract. Never lived up to it with the Dolphins. But that would have been a hard contract for anyone to live up to, especially,

Jacob:

Oh,

Jason Harwood:

Lyman, like what,

Jacob:

Sue signed that contract, tax free in Florida, and then his level of play, his level of effort just fell off.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. He wasn't stomping anyone's heads or anything down there.

Jacob:

Yeah, he didn't have to.

Jason Harwood:

No.

Jacob:

out on the beach.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, he was. right. So the reason why I bring up that FL caps off, it kind of relates to the next two topics that we're going to talk about here. We can, with the increased cap space, that was kind of predicted, but maybe not by this much. So it might give the lines a little more room to resign some people or sign extensions. So player that we might sign an extension with right now that just become eligible this year is Hutch. He released a new workout video. Let's start there. What did you think about how he looked when he was running?

Jacob:

I was excited when I saw the video. I saw him post it. I was like, okay, yes, and it wasn't a very long video. It was kind of just like him running sprints, but when, when I saw it, I was like, oh man, there's just, there's no way he would have been able to play in the Super Bowl. That was the way, he was not moving fluid enough. I mean, shout out to him for rehabbing the way that he did and being as far as he is right now. But yeah, that whole Super Bowl question where, there was a chance I don't, based on that one video, I don't think so. If they would've let him play, they probably would've been taking a spot from somebody else and he would've been very limited, he wouldn't have been able to play very many snaps or anything. I just don't see it being possible.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I don't see it either. He looked very clunky running. I mean, he didn't look like. looked like an athlete that was injured, come back and just, and that was straight line sprints that we saw, there was no cutting,

Jacob:

Great.

Jason Harwood:

For him to do what he needs to do. Would have had the effort. I know he would have been at, had the effort if he'd been there, but just. He would have been limited. And why would the lines of risks him getting hurt for, what he could have played, like what 10 snaps at most. And that would have been, like you said, you're taking a spot from someone else that could be a lot more productive than 35 percent Hutch or whatever

Jacob:

possibly causing a setback affecting next season, too, if I'm trying to rush him out there.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. And just for Hutch, why would he want to risk that? He's we're just about to talk to in line to sign a contract extension. He gets injured again. That, that could really affect, we would just it could affect whether we even signed into an extension this year, cause you'd want to see how he comes back from the injury. Yeah. So let's talk about it. When do you think that he's going to sign this fifth year? I assume this is going to happen a fifth year contract extension. Do you think it's going to, first of all, I'll start there. Do you think it's going to happen?

Jacob:

It's absolutely 100 percent gonna happen. It has to happen. No, he's earned it already at this point. I don't think that you can really count this injury against him.

Jason Harwood:

yeah. Do you think it happens before the season? Do you think it's going to happen early in the season or do you think it's going to happen before the season starts?

Jacob:

When they did the deal with Sewell, that was, I think it was right around the draft time. Or maybe right after the draft. I forget. It was definitely like around

Jason Harwood:

was cause I'm in Roswell's before the draft was Sewell's

Jacob:

so Sewell's was right after

Jason Harwood:

I am

Jacob:

I would have to look that up, but there was around that time. So I think it's probably going to be handled the same way, right? You find out how much cap space you actually have left. We find out what we can do, how we tie in this fifth year with the contract, how we're going to play around with that. I mean, do you think there's any doubt that it's?

Jason Harwood:

no, I think what, I think you're right about the timing of it. It might even be a little bit later, just we might. See how he run, is running. They may want to see just exactly where he's at, but I think it'll be before the season. We're definitely going to obviously pick up the fifth year option regardless, because that's due May 1st. So we have to, you have to announce whether you're going to pick up a fifth year option, which basically guarantees that fifth year at a certain salary level. And. You know that, and it's going to be an acceptable salary for Hutch, regardless of whatever Accenture we sign. However, I see this going down. The Panay Sewell thing is right because we picked up his contract with Accenture, but they kind of rolled everything into his next contract, which really helped his The stabilizer the cap hit that Penesool is going to have for next season and, for a few other seasons, because they were able, the way they were able to run that contract, which I think that's what they're going to do with Hutch here.

Jacob:

I mean, I would be shocked if they just let it like, let's just pick up his fifth year option. We'll let this roll out. I don't know. I mean, with the injury and everything, it just wasn't a knee injury. He wasn't, ligament damage or whatever. It was a broken bone. I just don't see them. Holding that against him or doing anything, just get the deal done now, especially because let's say we wait, there's other people going to be signing contracts and stuff. I'm sure. When you do sign Hutch, it's got to be the top dollar, top contractor near it. You're only, hurting us by waiting an extended period of time, and then you get a couple more guys signed, and now all of a sudden you're on the hook for a couple more million every year.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, you're, you've hit the nail on the head right there. That's what I was thinking. Follow the playbook of these past signings of Amin Ra. Penes will be the first so that, you're not paying that additional premium and don't be. Don't be the Cowboys. Don't be the Bengals that just cost you guys millions of dollars because you're not signing that player,

Jacob:

Right.

Jason Harwood:

you're ruining, you're doing every don't expect lines to do business that way. The way the only wild card in all of this is the injury and the lines will have all the information they need. He's working out at the facility because that's where the running was right at the practice So they'll have all that information. It's not like he's working out off. Site somewhere else. And they have to guess where he's

Jacob:

They're not just watching these same videos that we are.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. They, I'm sure that blinds coaches or training staff is there how he's progressing. And we all know that Hutch is going to work as hard as he can to get. And back for next season and prime shape. So I'm not, that's not what I'm worried about with him.

Jacob:

Right now his fifth year option, which I don't know if this is solid set yet, but the fifth year option for him would be 23. 2 million basically. And the top edge rusher in terms of average a year is Nick Bosa at 34 million.

Jason Harwood:

I mean, you're getting a deal when you look at what, Hutch healthy last year was on pace to break the sack record.

Jacob:

Yeah,

Jason Harwood:

pace to break the pressure created record, he was gonna, he was on pace for an all time season, before he got hurt last year whether he could keep up that pace, I don't know, because in that game, it was only five games and one of those games was that Tampa Bay game where he had what four and a half sacks. I mean, it's hard to, it would have been hard to keep up that pace, but regardless, he would have been on pace to at least lead the league in sacks. that's probably what it garnered him, defensive player of the year. So the injury I'm sure costs him a little, definitely cost him some money, but it may have just delayed it a little bit.

Jacob:

right.

Jason Harwood:

All right. So let's talk about the more interesting player, whether we take up the fifth year option, JMO taken in the same draft as Hutch. As same question, do you think, first of all, do you think they're going to pick up their extension? Do you think they're going to pick up his fifth year extension?

Jacob:

I'll go back and forth on this one. Jamo's fifth year extension would be 15 million right now. And I kind of feel like they might pick that up and let him play this one out. I don't, I would rather them work something out with him and do a contract. But really, when you look at the other, that 15 million, when you look at the comparable players, that's Courtland Sutton, that's Tyler Lockett, Jerry Judy, those are the people making around that, that's how much you'd be saving off of that. So you gotta figure, if you're gonna be signing to a contract, he's probably gonna be asking at least 20, 25, right? And I don't know, I mean, it's just a tough call whether we pay him that.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I

Jacob:

How are you feeling about it,

Jason Harwood:

yeah, I definitely got to pick up the fifth year option because you said, you just mentioned the players that he'd be combined and salary level definitely worth that 15 million.

Jacob:

Ray?

Jason Harwood:

don't know. I mean. I want to say bad luck follows him. It might be a maturity issue. There's a lot of things that have happened that, that would give me pause, whether to commit a ton of money. I want to see him do it for another year under a new OC, under a new wide receivers coach, I want to see him do it one more year. I know that's going to flies in the face of what we just said about Hutch's sign them early to get ahead of it, save yourself some money me. Hutch is more of a for sure thing, whereas Jamo is not, and I'd rather just, rather pay extra later on to be sure that he's going to turn out to be the player that we think he has a possibility of turning out to be.

Jacob:

That's the problem with Hutch is that regardless, I think that Hutch is going to be top paid or near the top paid, so if that number goes up, then his salary goes up. With Jane Law, I think his salary probably hovers around the same thing. This year, next year, I mean, he was top 20 in touchdowns. I think he was almost top 20 in receiving yards last year, but you're right. I think we just need to see more out of him before we, because we don't know how much he's asking either. If he's asking for 25 or 30 million, like that's towards the top. That's then you're talking top 10 money, then you're getting closer to Amin Ra who's been more productive for longer, it's going to, it's going to be a tough decision that they have to make with him.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I just don't, as of right now, I would not trust JMO to go on any other team And be a number one wide receiver. I just don't, I just don't think it works like that for him. He has questionable things about going up for 50, 50 balls, and as he gets older and the speed, maybe decrease. And his worth will go down a little bit in my opinion. Whereas Amin Ra. It doesn't have that issue, he is going to, he'll play any sort of, he can play all three of those positions, slot X, Z, he can play any of that and do well at it. So I don't really, I don't know if I want to commit all that money to JMO and we'll see what these plans have, what are we going to do in the next couple of years? Because if we. Do you know, don't, if we do sign up to the fifth year option, but don't pick up as an extension, at what point do we get another wide receiver in here that can do similar things to JMO, take the top off the defense. Cause you're going to need a player like that on the offense. You need someone that could take the top off the defense,

Jacob:

Absolutely. Do we look at drafting his potential replacement or just extra help? Do we do that this year? I mean.

Jason Harwood:

right. Or is it like, a Brad Holmes special where late in the draft, you just draft someone is going to be a two year project just to get him ready. I don't know, I. And also it just depends on JMO. And I think this year with Scotty Montgomery, we'll tell a lot like his maturity level. It's already, Dan Campbell speaks about it happening, but he needs to also maintain that and keep growing for me to have confidence in him. He's a great player. I want him on his team. He had, his best year last year made some really tough catches. The hands thing kind of gone away with me. What I want to see him develop is. The contestant catches. That's where I want to see some development next year. Even if he's not going to catch it, there are times where he's just giving up on routes, it seems like, and not and the other teams are getting easy picks. You think about the commander's game, we're fine. Kind of gave up on the route. And then that Vikings game where golf Kendra's threw up that ball, whether Jamo gave up on the route or anything, but if he keeps running and least gets in the defender's face, makes it a tougher interception.

Jacob:

Rather than just stop or kind of give up, I mean. Yeah, you're right. That wasn't a play where it was like there was another receiver behind him. He knew what that was. He just knew he was overshot and just kind of gave up.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, that's the kind of stuff that I think I want to see some more growth for him next year. And I'm sure the coaches are on there talking about that. Uh, This deals with J Mo, but the NFL announced this week that he won't face the discipline for the gun incident, so we won't have that hanging over where he might miss a few games at the beginning of the year. I didn't think that they, he was gonna, I didn't even, I hadn't even really thought about this in a long time, that

Jacob:

Yeah, I forgot that it happened until I saw the story that they, he wasn't going to face discipline. It's oh yeah, that's right.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, so that's nice. So hopefully there's no other surprises that come up along the

Jacob:

Exactly. He just really, we really need him to have a clean offseason and clean training camp and Injury free, knock on wood, no legal trouble, no suspensions, no,

Jason Harwood:

none of that. Yeah Let's just have let's get to work and just eat your McFlurries or whatever the heck he eats

Jacob:

why don't you spend more time on the jugs machine with Amun Ra and just

Jason Harwood:

Oh

Jacob:

lay low.

Jason Harwood:

yeah, our work with Calvin about going up and, high pointing the ball and, just, that's just what I want to see him work and, what's better than having the best player ever to do it, high point a ball like that, obviously Calvin's a freak of nature, but I'm sure he could teach a JMO a thing or two.

Jacob:

Yeah, I just don't think Jamo has enough weight on him to really like box out or do that kind of,

Jason Harwood:

no, but he just needs to just get in there and do the contested catches. He can't come. Yeah. He won't be able to box out or, push people around. That's just not gonna, that's not his

Jacob:

That comes with the contestant catches too though, as being, big body and being able to create separation right there at the end and, his separation is by how fast he is.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, no, that's his best weapon. And that's not going away. He just needs to, further his game. All right. NFL combine starts next Monday. First of all, do you watch it? Jacob, are you watching all the

Jacob:

do I definitely don't Die Hard Watch from beginning to end, but I'm following updates as it's happening. I look out for the Michigan players absolutely, but then, just try to look at the top stories, try to see some of the lower level players that I have my eye on trying to see. Trying to see what they're about. I like hearing about the interviews and stuff like that. It's funny because, they always have rumors about how poorly people interview or this or that. There's just, there's so much smokescreen. There's so much going on there in Combine that you can't even tell how much is true. But, I do the I like it because it doesn't usually affect the Lions, but I like how there's always one or two players that do really well at the 40 yard dash, the bench, like one of those drills, there's somebody that does really good, and then all of a sudden they go from like late first, second round pick, to like top ten, and then people are so shocked when these guys are bust, like what do you even,

Jason Harwood:

I know spent, three years, three or four years watching a player, what they could do on the field and then all of a sudden, they bust your expectations on the bench press and suddenly that's going to be the best player. Yeah, I mean, that's what Walker from Jacksonville just kept moving up the board and move past Hutch, just ignoring what you just saw from Hutch and, the relentless effort as Calvin Shepard had said, and you just forget all that and said, Oh, this guy, demon or whatever. I'd rather trust a tape. So you wrote a question, I think in here, does the 40 yard dash or bench press matter to you? And I think that's what you kind of meant by that. I mean, that's what you're wondering whether, you, I really,

Jacob:

First, do you see, do you look at those numbers? Are you intrigued by those numbers? And then do they matter to you?

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. So of all, yeah, I mean, it's a competition. So yeah, I like to see who's super fast and watching some, especially when I wish JMo could have ran that 40. The year, because

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

was going to break it, broke the record. like seeing that. I love seeing extreme speed, but also I am not the Oakland Raiders and be like, Oh, fastest receiver. That's who we got to draft because there's so many other things on there. And think Brad Holmes has talked about it. They use, the GPS data. The in game speed as more of a barometer than 40 yard dash. I think that is the 40 yard dash basically is just a confirmation for them of a player's speed.

Jacob:

But you know, it is straight away speed. So

Jason Harwood:

It's straight line speed with no pads or anything on, and yeah, no, no one in your face. So not as relevant to me, bench press. I mean, yes, it's going to show overall strength, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have good football instincts or know how to use your strength properly to get proper leverage, proper technique. more important than overall bench press, but say you had two players graded similarly they had, you know, more impressive bench press. You might be able to, break a tie that way.

Jacob:

You think to do that though? I mean, I know that like it's a possibility, but do you think there are teams that really sit down? You know what? We're toss up between player A and player B, but player A did 30 reps on the bench press player B did 18 reps Do you think that those conversations actually happen like that?

Jason Harwood:

I think conversations like that actually happened, but I don't think that's a reliable way you should be drafting, but. I think everything that they see at the combine is a confirmation of what they saw on the tape. And also it just matters, is this player prepared? Did they take this seriously? I'm sure all that goes into it, but I think for the Lions, the biggest thing that happens in this combine is the interviews. I really

Jacob:

Yes,

Jason Harwood:

that's, the interviews, which we don't have. Access to, until, and we didn't even see any from last year, but the previous year when they would do the inside the den series, we could see some of those interviews. And those were very interesting. And I think that's where the lions find out what a player is made of and whether they're going to gel, really. I think that's the most important thing. And again, that's not on the field. We don't see that.

Jacob:

and I really like seeing those as well I don't think you didn't end up watching the hard knocks the the offseason all the Giants Did you

Jason Harwood:

No, I did not

Jacob:

so it showed them when their interview process and it showed some of the questions they ask and show them interview the different quarterbacks and everything You would like that, so you should watch that. But yeah, I like that insight too.

Jason Harwood:

I have max this year and I did not have that last year, so I will, I don't know who's going to be the off season one this year, but I will.

Jacob:

After how bad the Giants looked, I would be surprised if anybody's jumping at the chance to do that.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. I mean, that's the giant. So,

Jacob:

Yeah, we're clear.

Jason Harwood:

themselves. Any position groups that you're looking at checking out.

Jacob:

Obviously, we'd like to see the edge defenders, just to see what they have, because I think that's the top position of need for us. Offensive linemen are in the combine, but that's one of those things we just talked about yeah, I mean, somebody's gonna bench 35, 40 reps or something like that, but that doesn't, it holds no weight for me whatsoever. So it's not really interesting to see the offensive linemen, it's more about seeing the skilled players, and I like seeing the edge rushers. Wide receiver is an interesting one for me this year, but I think most of the ones that are going to be high profile wide receiver names are people going in the first, round or two, and that's not, if we're going to be drafting receiver, it would be later in the draft.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I don't expect us to be drafting any, anyone towards the top half of the draft for a wide receiver, although lions do crazy things,

Jacob:

The right guys there, they fall in love with, maybe, but,

Jason Harwood:

they will, but yeah, I don't see that happening. Want to say it's going to be offensive line and, defensive who knows we could ask, we do need some secondary help corner, depending on who we bring back and free agency. we have a lot while to think about that. Cause free agency might dictate who we're going to target in the draft, but

Jacob:

right?

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I, it'd be interesting to get what the beat writers have to say. And I'm more interested in getting some of the coaching interview. And I know Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell do some interviews. we haven't heard from them in a while, so I do like that. and Rod would always say something about the state of the lions. Maybe we'll get some interesting things that'll happen at Ford field this year. We might find out some information, so we'll see, that. Football is football. Talk is good talk. So that'll, At

Jacob:

At the very least, yeah, it's that means the season's getting closer.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to talk about? Scott and combine or anything coming up.

Jacob:

Nah.

Jason Harwood:

All right. You saw something on tic tacs. You want to introduce that and we'll play this little game.

Jacob:

Yeah, so I saw a TikTok video, gave me an idea to do this for you, but, The TikTok video, I Whatever TikTok profile was, I guess they do this for NFL teams, They will just show 15 random players from a team, It's, just a picture, there's no description, It's just a picture for maybe 3 4 seconds, And you have to try to guess that player. And, They were 15 Detroit lions. They went through, I got 13 out of 15 and I was mad that I missed the two because they were, people I should have known her names. I should have got I clicked the comment section and then I saw people were mad at the original, at the post for the guy, they said he was listing obscure lions or people he's no one's heard of before or old players that like nobody to follow the lines now would know. And I was shocked by that because I knew almost all of them. We're not going to be showing pictures here, but I do have, I'm it's those exact same players that I have on here. I just have something about the draft, what number they wore. And then an interesting fact about them. And I want you to guess what player it is.

Jason Harwood:

All

Jacob:

And I've only got I've only got five or six on here just to something fun to do. And I'll tell you the other players that were on the list. I'll tell you which one I got wrong. But

Jason Harwood:

Okay.

Jacob:

so this first one is just an example. He wasn't on the list, but. You only get one guess. I'll tell you the three things, you get one guess. All right. Holds the Lions record for most passing yards by a rookie. Ruling number three. Traded from the team in 2006.

Jason Harwood:

Okay. Drew Stanton. I don't know.

Jacob:

Mmm. Joey Harrington.

Jason Harwood:

Oh, Joey Haran. He holds the record for Oh

Jacob:

think Stafford came within a hundred yards or two hundred yards or something like that, but Stafford played in six less games.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Jacob:

So that's how it's gonna go. Now you see, that was just my example one.

Jason Harwood:

Okay.

Jacob:

So these next ones are players that were actually on that list. Alright, first one, first round pick in 2009, won numbers 84 and 87, scored the game winning touchdown against the Browns in a Stafford shoulder injury game.

Jason Harwood:

Okay. Brandon Predick

Jacob:

Yep, yep. Next one, third round pick in 2008, ran number 92, and set the Super Bowl record for fastest scorer, I believe the year that he left.

Jason Harwood:

Hold on. Repeat that? You said,

Jacob:

So he won number 92, So I'll tell you that, defense, third round pick in 2008, and he set the Super Bowl record. The fastest scoring play in the Super Bowl history.

Jason Harwood:

Oh, okay. Oh, man. Former Lions set the record? I'm not used to hearing Lions at the Super Bowl in the

Jacob:

Yeah, I know. I was surprised that this was on there, too.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, I don't know. Who is it?

Jacob:

So this was Cliff Averill.

Jason Harwood:

Oh.

Jacob:

So Cliff Averill went to the Seahawks, and on the first play of the game, it was like that bad snap, and they had to chase it down, and Cliff Averill got the the, tackled him in the end zone for a safety. Yes.

Jason Harwood:

Manning? Was that? Yep, that bad sap right at the beginning. Okay, that

Jacob:

Yeah, it was like the first play of the game. I think I said it was like 12 seconds a clock.

Jason Harwood:

that Cliff Averill Got that

Jacob:

Was the one, yeah. It wasn't a touchdown, it was a safety, so

Jason Harwood:

safety. Oh,

Jacob:

were thinking touchdown, and that's what confused you. That's okay.

Jason Harwood:

that.

Jacob:

This would be much easier for you if you saw the pictures. I know that, but this is just the only way we have to do this,

Jason Harwood:

no, we're good.

Jacob:

Next one. Sign So, wasn't drafted with us, but signed with the Lions in 2013. Row number 27, and he led the league in interceptions in 2014, with the Lions.

Jason Harwood:

What the lines Glover Quinn,

Jacob:

You got it.

Jason Harwood:

all Yeah.

Jacob:

longest rushing touchdown in Lions history. Of 88 yards.

Jason Harwood:

Java is Java best.

Jacob:

Yep, that's it.

Jason Harwood:

Yep. couldn't

Jacob:

I can see you were right there, it took a minute.

Jason Harwood:

Could not think of the last, I was almost said bell and I was like, no, that's not right. It's best, yeah. Java best. That was what, when he scored that touchdown, was that the bears game? Was that was, When he got

Jacob:

I don't have that in front of me, I don't remember when it was.

Jason Harwood:

just remember him scoring in that game. That was that Monday night game with the Bears. We started out like crazy and Yeah. Okay. Alright. That was a little tangent. Go on. Sorry.

Jacob:

Yeah, no. We're bringing up memories.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Jacob:

Alright, last one. Undrafted free agent that signed with the Lions in 2011. He primarily wore number 35. And he worked as a security guard for the Lions training camp while he was a student at Wayne State.

Jason Harwood:

Oh. Shoot. Drake Bell.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah.

Jacob:

You said Bell the last time. I was like, oh man, it's fresh out of his mind, he's gonna get it now.

Jason Harwood:

it is, yeah, that's hilarious. All right.

Jacob:

Yeah, so those were just the ones that I did that for, but the other players on that list that the pictures were of, Kevin Smith, Louis Delmas, Nate Bronson, Nick Fairley, Sean Hill, Sean Rogers, Stephen Tellick, Tahir Whitehead, John Kitna.

Jason Harwood:

None of those are obscure lions.

Jacob:

So I was shocked I was shocked that there were people commenting on there about like how obscure and they were like almost mad. Someone was like, I'm a Lions fan, I only got three of these. Like, how? A Lions fan this year? I don't understand.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. Maybe when the new lions fans, since we've been winning the last couple of years and yeah, maybe that was a,

Jacob:

The ones I got wrong Sorry, what were you saying?

Jason Harwood:

No, go ahead.

Jacob:

Oh, the ones I got wrong, Kevin Smith, when I saw the picture, I said Kevin Jones. I was like, okay, that's Kevin Jones. And it was Kevin Smith, I got the name wrong. And then the other one, Tahir Whitehead, they showed the picture of him and I didn't, did not recognize him, nothing came to me at all.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, you probably blocked him out because of his poor linebacker play. You

Jacob:

Right.

Jason Harwood:

him out. Yeah So knew you're gonna do this because we talked about it when I was looking at the seller cap stuff, I found two seller cap facts that I wanted to quiz you on.

Jacob:

Oh, okay.

Jason Harwood:

will be a little different, but

Jacob:

Salary cap things.

Jason Harwood:

just see it. They're just funny thing. I don't know if you're going to get these or not, but they're more interesting than anything. So we'll see lion. We'll have a 23. 3 million cap hit for the lions next year. It's actually number two behind Jared Goff. 23.

Jacob:

At 23 million.

Jason Harwood:

3 million cap hit.

Jacob:

Oh God. Was

Jason Harwood:

It's going to shock you. I don't

Jacob:

that Panay?

Jason Harwood:

No, it is Taylor Decker. when they redid his deal, they front loaded this. Panay is way down the list. This cap is only like 9. 8 million because of how

Jacob:

Yeah. I like that.

Jason Harwood:

Yep. So Taylor Decker, 23. 3 million. So it's just how they've structured these deals. This

Jacob:

is 9 million right now, how high is Panay's school is towards the end of this contract?

Jason Harwood:

yeah, I looked at it. It's yeah, there is remember what Panay, what they did with Panay is that they rolled us in with this fourth year deal and so like they spread. His signing bonus over six years. So it's, they've, really did a smart deal. And I think that's what they're going to do with Hutch.

Jacob:

Yeah, I hope so.

Jason Harwood:

My next one, this is my last one I have for you. This former lion will count 6. 5 million against the cap this year. Former lion.

Jacob:

for us. You mean, or just

Jason Harwood:

lion. he is. will count 6. 5 million. So he's basically dead cap money for the lions this year.

Jacob:

I don't remember anybody that we traded. Was it Sutton?

Jason Harwood:

It is Sutton. Yeah.

Jacob:

Oh, okay.

Jason Harwood:

right now is Carleton Davis. He is cause they were, they restructured his deal last year. He's got a 9. 5 million cap hit dead money. Yeah. Yeah, Cameron Sutton still costing six and a half million. Now there's,

Jacob:

avoided? Are we still,

Jason Harwood:

there is, we're still in conflict about getting some money back. So that may be lowered and we may be able to get some additional cap money. And we talked about this podcast last summer when lines are still filing for that. It's still taking, takes forever. And I don't know

Jacob:

of course,

Jason Harwood:

takes So yeah. So we'll get back I think later on this summer, we'll get back and do the Honolulu blitz and have questions like this, but that

Jacob:

It was fun doing that again.

Jason Harwood:

Yeah, definitely put put you on the hot seat, but I wasn't planning on doing anything with you. Cause I thought we'd just do those questions for me. But when I saw those cap numbers, I thought that was pretty interesting. I thought Taylor Decker one really surprised me.

Jacob:

Yeah. I did not see that

Jason Harwood:

Yeah. Right, man, anything right now, I think it's two, two, going to the third period for this Canada line or Canada, USA.

Jacob:

a couple more minutes before they start.

Jason Harwood:

yeah,

Jacob:

I didn't see who scored for Canada.

Jason Harwood:

I didn't, I saw them celebrating and yeah, I wanted to throw something, but we're in this podcast I I want to encourage everybody that's listening next, on Tuesday when we release the Fantasy PlayDrop. It'll be a great way of us looking back at the season. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm curious how it's all going to work out. And hopefully it just, hopefully I didn't jinx it by talking about it too much today.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Jason Harwood:

get everybody healthy and we can do this. All right, Jacob, I think we got another podcast in the books here. We always think, how are we going to talk? And then we end up talking for an hour, which is, it's always fun talking lines, talking

Jacob:

Dammit, it's not hard to talk football.

Jason Harwood:

No, it is not sound even like that hard to even come up with these topics. So yeah, hopefully we We have a lot to talk about, before we know it, free agency is going to be here. That's three weeks away, which is crazy because then there'll be a lot to talk about for a while. Just not only with lions, but the NFL who we lost who we've gained hopefully. And yeah, there'll be plenty to talk about then. And then right behind that would be draft talk.

Jacob:

Can't wait. Thank you.

Jason Harwood:

All right. For Jacob, I'm Jason, let's go lions.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Jacob Litton

Co-host
Head Shot

Jason Harwood

Co-host